Martha Jo Atkins PhD, End-of-Life Counselling

My guest today is Martha Jo Atkins PhD, end-of-life counselor, counselor supervisor, (LPC-S), coach, speaker and author of Signposts of Dying: What You Need to Know (2015). For almost thirty years, you Martha has worked with grieving and bereaved children and families and people at end-of-life and the ones who love them. I asked what that kind of counselling entails.
In the very early 90s, Martha  worked at a children's hospital in the intensive care unit. She worked with children who were dying and their siblings. She found that the siblings were often left out not invited in to say goodbye. And so she started to do that and enjoyed it.
Her brother died in 93 and her personal and professional lives collided. Martha learned about grief in a whole new way. She returned to university and got her master's degree. Now she is in West Virginia in private practice.  As an example of what she does she spoke of  the  person she most recently lived with and helped to navigate his last days. And it was powerful and good work.
Martha likes dropping into a family system or a friend system and helping them help the person who's dying. And this community comes around the person. People engage in their own grief processes, they help each other, they learn. In this case, there was a lot of learning about dying and what dying is and how to care for somebody. It is work that calls to her.
We discuss shamanism. Martha saw it was very magical. And through practicing it she realized how it's a support for being human, a different kind of support than sitting in a pew in a church. As a result, her practices are different,  she thinks of the spirits of the land. She used to make altars and mandalas, that would give her a sense of rootedness and and connection to the place, which feels important.
Next week  my guest will be Laurence Freeman OSB, a Benedictine monk of the Congregation of Monte Olivetto Maggiore in Italy. He is the Director of the World
Community for Christian Meditation (WCCM) an inclusive contemplative
community based in Bonnevaux. Fr Laurence is a prolific author. He has collaborated with the Dalai Lama on many dialogues and on the ground breaking book The Good Heart. He was awarded the Order of Canada in recognition of his work for interfaith dialogue and the promotion of world peace.

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
dying, people, children, life, hospital, care, community, work, friend, emotions,  family, left, understand, grief
SPEAKERS
Speaker 2 (78%), Speaker 1 (21%) 
1
Speaker 1
0:00
This is Pushing Boundaries, a podcast about pioneering research, breakthrough discoveries and unconventional ideas. I'm your host, Dr. Thomas R.Verny. My guest today is Martha Joe Atkins PhD, end of life counselor, counselor supervisor, coach, speaker, and author of Signposts of Dying, What You Need to Know, published in 2015. Welcome, Dr. Atkins.

0:33
Thank you so much. Glad to be with you.
1
Speaker 1
0:35
Thank you. And you said that it's alright to call you, Martha. Please. Yes. So, if I understand that correctly, for almost 30 years, you have worked with grieving, and bereaved children and families and people at the end of life, and the ones who love them. Perhaps you can describe ,take all the time you need, to describe your work, what is it that you do?
2
Speaker 2
1:04
So I, I help people who are dying and I help their families, I did grief and loss work. A bunch in the 90s, I started a children's bereavement Center in San Antonio, Texas. And the very early 90s, I worked at a children's hospital in the intensive care unit. I worked with children who were dying and their siblings. And I found that the siblings were often left out not invited in to say goodbye. And so I started to do that I had a couple of nurses and a really kind understanding Doctor Who let me start bringing children into the unit to say goodbye, did lots of handprints and footprints and legacy building things with the families and enjoyed that it was good work. 
My brother died in 93. So my personal and professional lives collided a bit. And I learned about grief in a whole new way. And went on back to to get my master's degree, wrote about starting a children's center we were supposed to write about starting a children's service in San Antonio that didn't exist. So I was in San Antonio, Texas at the time. So I wrote for my professor about starting a children's grief center. And he took two points off for punctuation. Always very proud of that. And gave me an A and wrote a note and said you really should do this. So I didn't know any better. And I did. It was a lot of work. And a lot of people got involved in the brain centers going very well. Now I left there in 2005. 
And now I am in as I said, I'm in West Virginia, I've been with a man for the last six months, he died last week, and lived in with him and helped him with his community navigate his his last days. And it was powerful and good work. And I'm so glad I get to do it. I am I like dropping into a family system or a friend system and helping them help the person who's dying. And this community comes around the person. People engage in their own grief processes, they help each other they learn. In this case, there was a lot of learning about dying and what dying is and how to care for somebody. We there were 17 I counted of us that did hands on work with this guy. And in the last probably week there were seven of us that that took care of him. And it was beautiful and tender and intimate and difficult and
and I love it. I really it is it is work that calls to me. It is work that
2
makes me tired. I'm a little I'm a little draggy today, and I'm also learning about what I need to do for recovery from my own self care. And I think all of those things are important when you talk about death and dying. It's yeah, I keep saying it's good work, but it's good work.
1
Speaker 1
4:45
So you mentioned the fact that you have spent the last six months with this one gentleman who just passed away, right, yeah, yeah. So I would imagine that being there many hours a day for six months you develop a very close relationship.
2
Speaker 2
5:04
Now this guy was in. I've known him for a long time. And I was it was six weeks this last six weeks of his life. The last six months, we've been talking on and off about me coming to live with him. And we both danced around it. And he, he wasn't sure. We both were sure in part of it was he wasn't quite ready to, to surrender to the, to the peace of dying. And yes, there is a relationship that gets built an intimacy that gets built, there's trust, there's co creation that happens. And we we made agreements. At the beginning, we talked about what we both needed, and how we would communicate with each other. And I feel I feel lucky, I don't. I'm sure there are situations that would be much more difficult living in with someone and I guess I get to be choosy. And it was nice to it was nice to choose him. And it was nice that he chose me. But yes, we we had a we definitely had a nice relationship.
1
Speaker 1
6:31
You said that you made an agreement about how we would relate to each other? Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about that kind of an agreement? 
Well,
2
Speaker 2
6:42
just yeah, what kinds of how we would communicate with each other. And the directness that was required that we needed direct communication with each other, so we could help each other. I could help him get what he needed. And he could let me know what he needed. And for us to so funny way to say it, but being our adult selves that we we could navigate this. And, and if repairs needed to be made, we could make repairs. We didn't we didn't ever need to do that. But we it was it was mostly around communication. Yeah. All right.
1
Speaker 1
7:29
So again, it must take like a huge amount of energy and thought and lots of emotions that are involved in this. So how do you take care of yourself? How do you how do you manage to get through such very, very difficult times.
2
Speaker 2
7:52
So part of it is how I view death. Now, I think before I view death as an ending, when I was 23, and Jim died, death was an ending and I was bereft for two years, and my family was bereft. And it was really difficult. And as I have lived into my life, and been with more people who've died and experienced the beauty of it, and experienced the dreams and connections and synchronicities that happen after and use my imagination, I can still have a relationship with those people. It's different. But the pain of it is it's very different than it was when I was in my 20s so and I've been with
1
Speaker 1
8:49

how has it changed? How has your view of this changed?
2
Speaker 2
8:54
Well, it was an ending and I wasn't going to see them again and  I didn't I didn't know how to regulate myself very well. I didn't know how to  be in community the way that I do now. I have a great community I lean on and they check on me and I check on them and
2
Speaker 2
9:32
difference the difference is I don't know I'm more peaceful. I don't know that I was so peaceful then. But there's a peacefulness now. And
2
Speaker 2
9:48
I  track patterns. I'm an introvert and have I'd like to track patterns. And there's this beautiful pattern as people are dying and when they Their body dies. There's also patterns that happen as the body is changing. And there's something about being with the patterns and knowing that you and I are going to have them. And everybody love is going to have them and millions of people before us have had them. There's a steadiness there. I don't feel like I'm saying this very well. But there's a steadiness there. And the fear around it has gone for me
1
Speaker 1
10:37
Do you believe that there is an afterlife that there is something after we die, that Oh, souls or whatever, somehow continues? Yeah, I,
2
Speaker 2
10:49
my friend of mine was saying yesterday, the difference between truth and belief, and I don't know what the truth is. I do know, I believe there's something more. And it gives me comfort to believe there's something more I watch the people who my guy did it, he had a number of people. He was looking around the room and the room was filled with people that the others of us couldn't see. He was inviting a dog that was on the floor to come onto the couch. And it was a dog who had recently died. And I watched that, and I can see how people would say those are hallucinations. I can see that and see how people say they were our visions. For him. They were comforting. And that that made me happy. I'm glad they were comforting for him. So I I hope there's something.
1
Speaker 1
11:51
Yes, yes. We all we all do. Although you said in your bio, that your father was a minister in the Methodist Church for 50 years. Yeah, it sure was. And then you began stepping away from religion towards spirituality in your 20s Can you tell me a little bit about that journey? How did how did you experience that
2
Speaker 2
12:25
I didn't ever feel like I fit in the church after I left home. I went to college and went to church, but it just didn't ever feel quite right. I had a friend who was well steeped in energy work. And she was a physical therapist and a healer. And I wanted to learn from her and began to learn about energy and bodies and feeling stuck energy, which I didn't I didn't really understand until I could close my eyes and put my hand near somebody and she actually had his work in somebody's on on their knee and I could feel my hand get stuck around to that space and I could feel heat changes and and I thought well, this is interesting. What is this about? So I began to, to delve into mysticism and later into shamanism. I studied with a West African shamanic practitioner for a while 

13:46
What did he teach
2
you? 

Oh, lots about rituals, lots and lots about rituals. I was just saying to a friend, another friend who studied with him as well, one of the one of the things he taught us was about spirits of the land. And when you go to a place to offer your breath or offer, I don't know piece of fruit, just something to the land. That is a recognition that you are here and they the land the beings of the land, the trees, the birds are here, and it's a way to connect. And I love that it when I get to a new place to be able to stop and root myself in that place and thank it for holding me. It gives me a different sense of presence. And I like that. The shaman also taught rituals around healing rituals around grieving and  I was, I was caught up in the magic of it. When I started, I always thought shamanism was very magical. And I wanted the magic. And through practicing it realized how really, it's a support for being human, and different kinds of support than sitting in a pew in a church. And it spoke to me in a different way. And now my, my practices are, are different, and still spirits of the land I like and I used to make altars and an altar. And while I like to make mandalas, I'll often make mandalas when I go to a place and it also gives me a sense of rootedness and, and connection to the place, which feels important. It's easy to be it's easy to drift around, drift in social media and drift wherever. And it's good to find ways to be connected. And I think one of the reasons I like death and dying so much is there's a up profound groundedness in it, when you let yourself be grounded in it. There was a moment where the group of people in the home wanted to move mark to a different place, this gentleman we were taking care of. And this was kind of this uprising of energy. And I I said to them a little bit later, there's, there's a time where we want so badly to do something. And we don't know what to do. So we we find things to do? And could we just sit and be in the difficulty of this? And kind of feel the air go out of the balloon in the room? And yes, that's what we ended up doing. The rising and falling feeling of the emotions were prevalent through the whole whole time with those folks. And with me too. But it is it is. It is something to be able to be still and sit in those emotions. And sit in ourselves and be with ourselves and be in community in that way. We so often don't want to be sad and community. I mean, my dad, it's not like that everywhere. But our US. Community often doesn't. We don't want to do feelings.
1
Speaker 1
17:46
And we don't want to be alone. Yeah, and do nothing.
2
Speaker 2
17:52
Right and do nothing. That's right. We can't just sit here and do nothing, though. Yeah.
1
Speaker 1
17:57
So many people have this this compulsion to immediately turn on the television set or the radio or to eat or do something. Yes. Yeah. You mentioned before, just a few minutes ago, that I think that one of the things that the Charmin taught you is to be wholly human. Yeah. So what does that mean to you? What does it mean to you to be wholly human?
2
Speaker 2
18:28
Holy, w h o l l y? Yes, fully.

18:35
Truly, human,
2
Speaker 2
18:37
truly human. So there's another gentleman I have been working with who's Peruvian. And I've been working with him for about 10 years. And he, he really is the one that he two of them have really taught me about that. It's, it's the it's, it's showing up as you are showing up as I am. And trusting that that's enough. Understanding that I have shadow and light and everybody has shadow and light. And that even so we can be loved in our shadow. And it's taken me a little while to to get to really believe that. And the the community. I just I can't say enough about community and the power of community when you're in a good one where you can be held and loved because of who you are, and because of who you're not. It's a lovely thing.
1
Speaker 1
19:51
Right? Yes, I totally agree. People can reach you through your website, which is
Speaker 2
20:07
iMarthaJoatkins.com. Okay,
1
Speaker 1
20:12
so atkins.com and you have said on it, you have some frequently asked questions on that website. And one of them is I've never died before. How do I do this? Yes. Do you
2
Speaker 2
20:31
panic question? Yeah, I've had several people ask me that. I am sure my answer. Well, I don't know if my answer would change now it is that you will know how to do it. When it's time. That's what I say. I hear the the metaphor language so the gentleman I was with said, he needed to get the tickets, there were tickets, and he and he needed to get them. I don't think he said he needed to get them taken care of, or he needed to find them. And I understood that to be the language of dying. And, and I said to him, when it's time for you to find the tickets, you'll find them you'll know that  to me is a little, little bit different way of somebody asking the same question about how do I do this? I have a friend who tells people just you're gonna go to sleep and you're just gonna go to sleep, and it'll be okay. You know, I don't know. My friend, I was just with him wanted to live so badly. And he never asked how to die. know, what would you say to somebody who asked that? No,
1
Speaker 1
22:17
I don't know. I've never been asked that question. In fact, one of the great regrets, I have several of them. But one of my great regrets in my life is that I was not present when my mother died. Yes. So I don't know. I don't know how I would answer that. One of my guests a couple of weeks ago, was Susan Highsmith that I would suggest that you get in touch with after we finish here today, I will send you her email. She has just written a book, a small book called I think it's called moving towards the light. And it's it's a book that she suggests family members or whoever is present at the bed of a dying person could read to them and make their journey. Easier. Interesting. And one of the things that she writes in her book, which really moved me a great deal was that you are on a boat, crossing a river and under shore close to you are the people that you love. And they are waving goodbye to you. And as you get further and further into the river, you see people on the other shore beckoning to you. Waving Hello, yes. Yeah. Which I thought was very beautiful. Lovely. Yes. So I think it would enjoy meeting her. And I will send you her email address in case you're interested because I think the two of you have a lot in common and she has also a degree in divinity. So she interesting, she has moved away from that into a more spiritual realm. Yeah. So coming back to you then. And not another question that that you mentioned that I thought was interesting was that my family wants me to keep fighting and I'm so tired. How can I help them understand? How do you how do you answer that question?
2
Speaker 2
24:53
Sometimes we can't make our family understand. We just can't them and there's a A point where the weariness, it will lead it, the weariness will take over in the dying person's eyes will close and they, they will speak less or speak not at all, and sometimes open their eyes and sometimes not and there's a there's a switch, then that happens that anxiety that happens with the family arises sometimes that they want to do what they can to pull the person back. And other times the family can start to move into their own understanding that the person is going to go. But it is. It is not. We want so badly to take care of each other. And we certainly want to take care of people we love. And it's it's a difficult thing on both sides, the person who's dying doesn't want to leave. Even though they're tired, they don't want to leave and the person the family doesn't want them to leave. And if they can transcend that and get to present, get to hear and now and not worry about what was and not worry about what's coming to just be right here right now. There's a change that can happen. And that that space of feeling emotion, and getting out of the mind and getting into the heart. And that space, that heart space. is the place to is the place to land this. How do we? How do we help each other feels mind always thinking about what to do and how we can do it. Rather than then settling in and being in the heart and letting the heart offer what it has.
1
Speaker 1
27:04
How do you deal with children? Let's say when a grandparent is dying, and there are several small children in the family, six to 12, let's say what is how do you counsel families? Should they bring those children in or not?
2
Speaker 2
27:23
I, I say to the parents, you know your child best. And then I say would you be willing to let your child choose what they would like to do. Because some children are very clear, they don't want to come and be in that kind of space. And some are very curious. If they're curious, I encourage the family to take a photo of the person who's dying to show what they look like now and to talk with a child about that. And then to bring them into the room come you know come in the door stand at the edge and let the child take in the room to feel the scene to see what's there. And and then to move to the bed if they want to move to the bed. Lots of I've been in the room a number of times where children have been pushed to go kiss somebody and tell them goodbye and hold their hand and that's difficult. It's it's it's important to let the child lead and for there to be a steady adult. And Steady means just steady and presence the adult can be crying, I say if you are an adult and you're on the floor curled up in the fetal position, that's not the time to bring your child and get your get your big feelings out. And it's okay for you to be to be teary but be a steady presence for your for your child. And I when I'm in a room with a wide range of ages, and we're talking about death and dying. I talk to the youngest child in the room and then everybody else catches up. And often that works well because adults are caught up in their own emotions and having a conversation as a six or an eight year old. Their eight year old self It's freeing and gentle slower, um, there's there's just there different ways to be with children and it allows for the whole room to breathe a little bit easier. And children so often are the ones who will emote and then bring the rest of the group to a place or heartspace to it's really beautiful.
1
Speaker 1
29:58
Was there anything in your own background that you think contributed to your interest in this whole area of death and dying.
2
Speaker 2
30:11
Certainly, certainly, Jim dying made a huge impact on my life. And

30:18
excuse me, who is Jim? 
2
Speaker 2
30:20
was my brother Jim? Yes. And he had a son at the time who was four. My nephew's now 33. And but that that had a big impact working at the the Children's Hospital my grandmother died when I was 16. And that's the first time I remember seeing my mother cry. She she wasn't present for her mother's death either. And I wonder, I wonder what that was for her. There was another sister that was doing the care. She and I never talked about that. It's interesting these pieces in our lives.
1
Speaker 1
31:14
Mm hmm. Yeah. So in these 30 years now, approximately right, that you have worked in this area? Yeah. Is there one particular client that sort of stands out? In your mind, one that really touched your heart?

31:37
Oh, there's so many.

31:39
Yeah, I expect
2
Speaker 2
31:42
no, one, no one. When I worked at abode, which is a home in San Antonio, for people who are at end of life that don't have anyone to care for them. So they, they have a hospice, but for some reason, they can't be in their own home or they don't have money to be in a nursing center. So we we had a house, people would come and stay in our house and we would care for them as they were dying. They were. We had a small staff and, you know, 50 100 volunteers that would come in and do work there. There was a gentleman who came who was in a wheelchair, he he Ubers, over to have a visit, came by himself and wanted to to her, he knew that he was dying, he was not able to care for himself anymore. He had a bone disease and a couple of other things that was causing paralysis that was eventually going to cause him not to be able to breathe. And he wanted to have a conscious dying experience. That's what he said when he came, he didn't want to be in a hospital. He didn't want to be in a nursing home. He wanted to be with people who were willing to talk about dying. And he came to be with us. He was a college professor, probably in his 60s. And what a pleasure it was to watch him relate to people and watch people relate to him of of all ages. 20 year olds came in to visit him, a young lady came into play the flute for him. The encouragement he gave to her as she was coming to say goodbye was was really quite something to see. He
2
Speaker 2
33:56
he chose us on purpose. And as he was changing. He got to a place where he had sunk in there's that that place of tucking in I call it were their eyes closed and they're not responsive to what's happening outside. And he was not his best friend was a physician. And the physician came in and I was not in the room. I was in the room hearing the physician talk on the telephone and I heard him say I did a sternal rub. So he did this on the man's chest and checked his pupils and he knew he's not responsive. This is all this is all for us. He just needs to go and he he was the man was hurting. And I back in the room and said to the man and I wish I would have been a little softer but I said to the man, your friend chose to come here ear, so he wouldn't have sternal rubs, and nobody would bother him. And he can hear you. He's in there. And the man just, uh, he's a very, he's a very prominent physician, and I'm sure didn't take very kindly to me saying that to him. He was worried that his friend was in pain. And I gave the man the phone and I said, call the call the hospice and talk to them. So he came back out, and we had a nice conversation after that was over, went back in the room, man sat down by the bed, and the man in the bed who had been so far away, opened his eyes, and lifted his hand and looked at his friend, he didn't have the energy to speak. I just the tears came down my face. And his friend said, You're here, you're here. It was this. It was a beautiful moment of connection. And I don't know, I don't know what kind of reserves it took for that man to be able to come back to connect to his friend, but he did. And after he, I mean, it was just it was a moment they had their moment, The man closed his eyes again. And, and he didn't open them again. He died pretty soon after that. This man saw a circle in the ceiling. And he'd say there's a there's somebody smiling down at him. The man who's dying any any. Then he said, he's dropped a rope down. But the ropes too short for me to grab. And this is another one, I said, the longer rope is coming, you'll have a longer rope soon, and he'll help you go soon. But I it was just in that room at abode. That it several people had a hole in the ceiling where they would see a light or they would see people in the light. And that always gave me great comfort. But I loved the presence of that man, and that he was so willing to be himself and his fear, talked to his grandson about matter and consciousness and physics and that matter is everywhere. And when I die, I'm going to be everywhere. It was just really beautiful. So he's he's a he's one of my favorites.
1
Speaker 1
37:31
I can see that. Yes, I can understand that. Are your parents still alive? 
They are not. No. 
When did they pass?
2
Speaker 2
37:41
My mother died in 2005. She had breast cancer that metastasized to her brain. And my brothers and brother and I cared for her as best we could. My dad was there as well but not able to do very much caregiving. And then my father died in 2016 and my brother and I again tag team he would he would he came from California and we spent was almost two months. We did every other night caring for dad he was in renal failure and he had some interesting visions and metaphors and but that that caregiving the slog of caregiving night after night is exhausted exhausting, it is exhausting. Yeah, and when it's your own person and and there's so many emotions wrapped up in it, it is exhausting. So we were glad to have done it.
1
Speaker 1
38:50
Did your father know about the work that you were doing?
2
Speaker 2
38:54
He did he in fact, let let me film a lot. I have. I have not well I have footage of when he came back from the hospital and in the ensuing weeks different things that happened and and right up to about a minute before he died. A lot of people came around the bed and I turned to the camera away. But I do have a I do have that and have taught with that we I did a class about about end of life and using him as a master teacher. And he was

39:47
Yeah, and he approved of your work.

39:50
He did approve of my work. Yes. That was good.
1
Speaker 1
39:53
That was now you wrote a book in 2015. Are you planning on following up that book with another book.
2
Speaker 2
40:02
I am. I am working on a memoir right now. It's I'm think I've got 260 pages, and had been wondering how I was going to finish it. And now that I've had this experience with this gentleman over these last months that he will, he will figure prominently into the book and that's how I'm gonna, gonna finish it. So it will be stories about the the different kinds of deaths that I have experienced and the lessons I've learned and some things that families can do together as they're caring for someone. So a little bit of teaching and a little, probably a little bit of teaching and a lot of stories.
1
Speaker 1
40:49
Very good. Look forward to reading that. Thank you. If you could have coffee, with any historical figure, who would it be?
2
Speaker 2
41:00
It would be with Elisabeth Kubler Ross. Oh, yeah. I missed her. I was a little bit. She was at the end of her career. And I was at the very beginning of my career, and many of the people I work with have. Teachers have had opportunity to see her and be with her and, and I didn't, and I would enjoy that very much.
1
Speaker 1
41:27
I can see that. Yeah. No, I think at the end of her career, did she not have some cognitive problems?
2
Speaker 2
41:36
That's what I understand. Yeah, I think she had a stroke. And I'm not sure she was an interesting woman.
1
Speaker 1
41:47
I'm sure. How do you relax?
2
Speaker 2
41:52
How do I relax? I love dogs. I love dogs. They make me happy. So anytime I can find a dog to walk or play with sometimes I will seek out a dog park in in towns I go to just so I can be with dogs. I like to walk and I like I just sometimes I just need quiet. No TV no radio and, and beauty. So the mountains are good. It's very beautiful here I love the sea like to go for, for walks on the ocean. And, and I love to laugh. I like really smart, smart human humor and witty humor and bad puns. And
1
Speaker 1
42:41
that's how I relax. 

42:46
And bad, bad puns and good friends. That's right.
1
Speaker 1
42:50
The people who see you while they are dying and you are counseling their families are the fortunate few.. But there is only one Martha Atkins and very few people like you. Most people die in hospitals or alone in terms of hospitals, what would you like to see what could make leaving this earth a little bit easier? If it was part of hospital routines, is there anything you could suggest that hospitals could adopt?
2
Speaker 2
43:41
It's interesting what we discovered when we were out of abode, when we would go to visit people in hospitals who eventually would come to abode often those people were they were left alone. The there's nothing to do for them now. It's a it's a hospitals are about saving lives. And when somebody's dead end of life, they seek to ship them out and get them to another place. And I I wish there was a I guess it's education. I'm not sure Thomas it's it's we went in a room one time and the the young nurses had said, you know the guys down the hall and the man was dying. He he was he was dying and they didn't know and not not their fault. That's not what they saw everyday and they didn't know and we did in the was called you need to call the chaplain It was that kind of conversation. And I don't know if there's I don't know if there's education that can happen that would help that. Or conversations among community, so we take better responsibility for what we want what we need, when it's our time. I'm not sure. Yeah, I have no helpful answer. I know, I know, they're there palliative care teams and hospice teams. And they, they seek to bridge the space between and sometimes they do well, and sometimes not. Just out, there are hospital navigators that help with different areas of hospitals. And I wonder if there's a, an end of life navigator that could help in hospital settings, I don't know, I think things are things are gonna have to change though we don't have the infrastructure in the US in the next 15 years to take care of all the people who are who are going to be dying, the we just the numbers, our number of baby boomers, who are going to be at the end of life is staggering. And we just don't have the we don't have what we need to take care of those people. And I think what's going to happen is communities, like the one that came around mark will, we're gonna have to take care of each other. And I teach a, I call it dying school, and with the hope that people will leave there and be able to take care of the the ones in their own community. And it's, it's little, we just have our little impact where we have it. And we have our impact. We help the people we can help and when, when people in my community can show up and help somebody who's dying and other people can learn from that there's a ripple effect that happens. And I hope that that will continue. And I know that there's other teachers doing similar work. But I really think it's going to be neighbors taking care of neighbors.
1
Speaker 1
47:22
It would be wonderful if each hospital would have at least one person like you who sort of specializes in counseling people who are dying. Yeah, it would be, you know, in a spiritual way, not in a particular religious way. Yeah. Yeah. Really nice. So finally, what you have had a very interesting and full life, and obviously, we hope it's far from over. But what's the most important thing you have learned so far in your life? 
2
Speaker 2
47:59
Oh, goodness. No one has ever asked me that. I think this is gonna sound kind of cheesy, but I think it's about self love and compassion, being kind to ourselves and holding ourselves gently. And that that energy, and that love herself, translates and attracts people. And we, we, I get to interact with all kinds of really beautiful people. And I love that but to be able to receive love, you got to you got to be able to love yourself. And I see so many people that didn't have life that are hesitant, hesitant to receive isn't to be loved. Worried about the mistakes they've made. Yeah. And it's part of our wholeness. As part of our wholeness.
1
Speaker 1
49:33
Yeah, so many people are uncomfortable living in their own skins. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's very. Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, this has been wonderful moving experience. Thank you very much. Anyone who wants to know more about you or to contact you can get go to your website? Is it Martha Jo atkins.com. It is. Okay. That that my guest next week is father Lawrence Freeman OSB and Benedictine monk of the congregation of Mount Olivia too much you're in Italy. He's the director of the world community for Christian meditation and inclusive, contemplative community based in both Ivo father Lawrence is a prolific author. He has collaborated with the Dalai Lama and many dialogues and then the groundbreaking book, the good heart. He was awarded the Order of Canada in recognition of his work for interfaith dialogue, and the promotion of world peace. Thanks again, Martha. And until next time, take care.

50:44
Thank you. Bye bye

Next week  my guest will be Laurence Freeman OSB, a Benedictine monk of the Congregation of Monte Olivetto Maggiore in Italy. He is the Director of the World
Community for Christian Meditation (WCCM) an inclusive contemplative
community based in Bonnevaux. Fr Laurence is a prolific author. He has collaborated with the Dalai Lama on many dialogues and on the ground breaking book The Good Heart. He was awarded the Order of Canada in recognition of his work for interfaith dialogue and the promotion of world peace.