My guest today is Dr. Natalie Dyer, PhD, Research Scientist with Connor Whole Health at University Hospitals, Warrensville Heights, OH and President of the Center for Reiki Research. She has published many scientific papers and book chapters on postmaterialist science, psychedelics, and the therapeutic effects of integrative medicine practices, including Reiki, yoga, acupuncture, and mindfulness, and is co-editor of the book Expanding Science: Visions of a Postmaterialist Paradigm and the forthcoming book Infinite Percepton: The Power of Psychedelics for Global Transformation. Natalie is also an energy medicine practitioner and teacher. Her passion is in understanding and addressing mental and physical health from a psychospiritual perspective. She lives in the woods on the east coast of Canada with her husband, artist Louis Dyer and their freshly minted three-months-old daughter.
I asked Natalie to explain the term post-materialism science? Natalie said that it signifies a new age in science, where we move beyond the limitations of the materialist paradigm, which states that everything can be reduced to matter, including consciousness. Many scientists and theologians believe that matter emerges from consciousness instead of the other way around. Post-materialism scientists adopt the findings of quantum mechanics, and acknowledge that that the mind affects measurements of various experiments in physics. It doesn't exclude materialism.
Since Natalie’s next book is about psychedelics, I wondered what role do psychedelics play in treating people with mental distress. The usual approach taken is by way of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy in a setting where there's a therapist who has been trained in administering psychedelics who guides the individual to step outside of their normal operating ego self, and to view their whole life, including what led to, and what keeps the depression going through this shift outside of the normal, mundane day to day thinking process. The psychedelics can show them, how their depression developed, and how they're keeping it going with their thoughts and their beliefs. So that they get is this chance to step outside of the normal narrative of their life. And that can cause a profound shift. There can be a scary kind of loss of control, when there's that ego death, where you're kind of stepping outside of your normal function of your mental awareness. That’s where the therapist comes, reassuring the person that it’s ok, that they are safe to continue. Then hopefully, the therapist can facilitate integration to take place and make changes based on what was discovered.
What does a shamanic Reiki master, like her, do? “Reiki is a biofeedback therapy. It's 100 years old at this point, but it's based on practices that go back 1000s of years, like Chi Gong, for example. And the idea is that anytime we have disease in the body, or we're unwell, there's an imbalance in our lifeforce energy. So that's called many different things, chi, prana. Spirit. So that's the basis for these practices.”
“Reiki works to bring balance back to that energy system and hoping that the physical system corresponds with that shift. So you learn to tap into the intention of channeling this energy, which is infinite and everywhere. That's the idea. And you either give this energy to yourself, so you're just kind of bringing this energy through into your body, or you give it to another person. “
“What I found when I started doing Reiki was really experiencing the
If you liked this podcast
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/contributors/thomas-r-verny-md
My guest today is Dr. Natalie Dyer, PhD, Research Scientist with Connor Whole Health at University Hospitals, Warrensville Heights, OH and President of the Center for Reiki Research. She has published many scientific papers and book chapters on postmaterialist science, psychedelics, and the therapeutic effects of integrative medicine practices, including Reiki, yoga, acupuncture, and mindfulness, and is co-editor of the book Expanding Science: Visions of a Postmaterialist Paradigm and the forthcoming book Infinite Percepton: The Power of Psychedelics for Global Transformation. Natalie is also an energy medicine practitioner and teacher. Her passion is in understanding and addressing mental and physical health from a psychospiritual perspective. She lives in the woods on the east coast of Canada with her husband, artist Louis Dyer and their freshly minted three-months-old daughter.
I asked Natalie to explain the term post-materialism science? Natalie said that it signifies a new age in science, where we move beyond the limitations of the materialist paradigm, which states that everything can be reduced to matter, including consciousness. Many scientists and theologians believe that matter emerges from consciousness instead of the other way around. Post-materialism scientists adopt the findings of quantum mechanics, and acknowledge that that the mind affects measurements of various experiments in physics. It doesn't exclude materialism.
Since Natalie’s next book is about psychedelics, I wondered what role do psychedelics play in treating people with mental distress. The usual approach taken is by way of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy in a setting where there's a therapist who has been trained in administering psychedelics who guides the individual to step outside of their normal operating ego self, and to view their whole life, including what led to, and what keeps the depression going through this shift outside of the normal, mundane day to day thinking process. The psychedelics can show them, how their depression developed, and how they're keeping it going with their thoughts and their beliefs. So that they get is this chance to step outside of the normal narrative of their life. And that can cause a profound shift. There can be a scary kind of loss of control, when there's that ego death, where you're kind of stepping outside of your normal function of your mental awareness. That’s where the therapist comes, reassuring the person that it’s ok, that they are safe to continue. Then hopefully, the therapist can facilitate integration to take place and make changes based on what was discovered.
What does a shamanic Reiki master, like her, do? “Reiki is a biofeedback therapy. It's 100 years old at this point, but it's based on practices that go back 1000s of years, like Chi Gong, for example. And the idea is that anytime we have disease in the body, or we're unwell, there's an imbalance in our lifeforce energy. So that's called many different things, chi, prana. Spirit. So that's the basis for these practices.”
“Reiki works to bring balance back to that energy system and hoping that the physical system corresponds with that shift. So you learn to tap into the intention of channeling this energy, which is infinite and everywhere. That's the idea. And you either give this energy to yourself, so you're just kind of bringing this energy through into your body, or you give it to another person. “
“What I found when I started doing Reiki was really experiencing the
If you liked this podcast
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/contributors/thomas-r-verny-md
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
reiki, consciousness, connecting, psilocybin, materialist, psychedelics, energy, work, universal, mind, depression, , experience, kinds, person, meditation, research, love
SPEAKERS
Speaker 2 (79%), Speaker 1 (20%)
1
Speaker 1
0:00
This is Pushing Boundaries, a podcast about Pioneering Research, Breakthrough Discoveries and Unconventional Ideas. I am your host Dr. Thomas R Verny.
My guest today is Dr. Natalie Dyer, PhD, Research Scientist with Connor Whole Health at University Hospitals, Warrensville Heights, OH and President of the Center for Reiki Research. She has published many scientific papers and book chapters on postmaterialist science, psychedelics, and the therapeutic effects of integrative medicine practices, including Reiki, yoga, acupuncture, and mindfulness, and is co-editor of the book Expanding Science: Visions of a Postmaterialist Paradigm and the forthcoming book Infinite Percepton: The Power of Psychedelics for Global Transformation. Natalie is also an energy medicine practitioner and teacher. Her passion is in understanding and addressing mental and physical health from a psychospiritual perspective. She lives in the woods on the east coast of Canada with her husband, artist Louis Dyer, and their freshly minted three months old daughter.
2
Speaker 2
1:09
Yeah, did I write percepton down? It's perception. Infinite perception.
1
Speaker 1
1:14
It should be perception.
1:19
Oh, sorry about that. Okay.
1
Speaker 1
1:24
The power of psychedelics for global transformation. Natalie is also an energy medicine practitioner and teacher. Her passion is in understanding and addressing mental and physical health from a psycho spiritual perspective. Welcome, Natalie. May I call you, Natalie? Yes, of course. Okay, thanks. You're welcome. Let's start by talking about post materialist science. Can you explain that, please? What is meant by post materialist science?
2
Speaker 2
2:05
Sure. Yeah. So it's signifies a movement, obviously, from materialist to post materialist. So after materialist, and it doesn't, I should just say it doesn't exclude materialism, it's just signifying a new age in science, where we move beyond the limitations of the materialist paradigm, which states that everything can be reduced to matter, essentially, including consciousness. So I think that's the main focus of post materialist science is that we don't know that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, for example, we don't know that it's the result of neurochemical firing, for example. And there's a lot of evidence that points to the idea that consciousness or the mind, operates outside of locality. So time and space, that it can act at a distance, for example. So the idea is that maybe it's not confined to the physical matter and function of the brain itself, and maybe exists potentially independently of the brain. Survival consciousness theory is an aspect of this. So it takes into account that we don't really know and we're not closing the door, on the idea that consciousness may not be fundamentally reduced to matter. And many scientists and theologians believe that maybe matter emerges from consciousness. So maybe it's the other way around, in fact, and it's just signifying, really leaving that door open, we're allowed to inquire about that we're not going to ostracize scientists that may be interested in these questions. So it's a that's basically it. It's this kind of era where we're moving beyond materialism, we're taking into account the findings of quantum mechanics, over 100 years old now, and acknowledging that that the mind plays a fundamental aspect in measuring what's going on with matter and in nature, so.
1
Speaker 1
4:07
Right? Well, I have no I have no problems in accepting that. Now, your next book is about psychedelics. Correct? Yes. So what role? What role role do psychedelics play in providing therapy for people with mental distress?
2
Speaker 2
4:27
Yeah, really good question. And really culturally relevant. This is becoming very, very popular as a topic that's being reported everywhere that research funding is increasing. So it's been investigated for a few different mental health challenges. One being treatment, resistant depression. So people that have gone on the SSRIs, they've done the psychotherapy and they still can't ameliorate their depression, so treatment resistant, and they start with those kinds of groups because it's just more ethical than it referring with maybe a course of psychotherapy and pharmaceuticals, for treating it. So okay, they've tried everything. So let's let's try psychedelics. And primarily, there's been studies with psilocybin, so the psychedelic active ingredient in mushrooms, magic mushrooms. So there's been Johns Hopkins has done a lot of studies on this, looking at psilocybin for depression. So psychedelic assisted psychotherapy is usually the, the approach taken, so you don't just give, give them psilocybin and send them on their way, like a prescription. It's in a setting where there's a therapist who has been trained in administering psychedelics, and they're guiding the individual while they're on the psilocybin to basically see, it's really about shifting the perspective. And something like ego dissolution, or softening the ego, our program sense of self and our beliefs and our, our habitual thoughts about ourselves in the world. And these substances, psilocybin allows the individual to step outside of that normal operating ego self, and to view their whole life, including what led to, and what keeps the depression going through this shift outside of the normal, mundane day to day thinking process, that they have their patterns, patterns of thought. So when we talk to individuals that have had psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, and have benefited from them and reduce their depression, they say that SSRIs, for example, just kind of numb everything, they're just addressing maybe the symptoms, but not the cause and the root, whereas the psychedelics can show them, how it developed, and how they're keeping it going with their thoughts and their beliefs. So that they get this chance to step outside of the normal narrative of their life. And that can cause a profound shift. And what's important is to really go with that, and that's where the therapist comes in, is that there can be a scary kind of loss of control, when there's that ego death, where you're kind of stepping outside of your normal function of your mental mental awareness. And you have the therapist to say it's okay, you can let go your, you know, provide this safe space for you to be able to explore that. And that's where the, the therapeutic component is, letting go and allowing that process to happen where you can then step outside and see, see that pattern, see your, your beliefs, and then hopefully, have the integration after to make changes based on what you've discovered.
1
Speaker 1
7:41
I've had, I've had a patient go to go to a clinic in Toronto, and receive ketamine. But he said to me that absolutely nothing happened. At that he received no guidance whatsoever. That's not good. Oh, it's not good. And he paid a fortune for three silly. Yes. Absolutely nothing out of it. He did not have scary experience. He had like nothing.
2
Speaker 2
8:18
Like he didn't experience anything. You don't hear that? You don't hear that much. No, that's really unfortunate. Yeah, there are some people resistant to that kind of treatment as well. Yeah, it's not for everybody, that's for sure.
1
Speaker 1
8:33
Is there any way to know in advance? Like what sort of advice would you give to a patient with resistant depression as to whether they might or might not benefit from psilocybin or ketamine?
2
Speaker 2
8:48
Yeah, that's a really, really good question. Yeah, well, we know for sure, we don't usually allow, if there's any kind of delusions or hallucinations, and yeah, so those are usually excluded from they've been excluded from the studies anyway. Sure. Yeah. I wouldn't recommend that. I think the, it's really useful. Like I was saying, with that shift in perception, if you're very rigid in your thinking, and yeah, I think that they're good candidates. If you're already very self inquisitive, you've done a lot of the work, like, you might not get as much benefit out of it, like, Oh, I've already explored my psyche and all these different ways. And I know, you know, it might not be as effective as someone who's very rigid in their thinking in that, you know, what's called the default mode network and the mind wandering and the constant rumination and this kind of thing, it will it will snap those people out of that. So I think that I mean it, I would recommend it. Not to anybody, of course, you have to be open to it. You have to not be scared of you know, the These kinds of things, I wouldn't recommend anyone just go do it. In other words, for sure, but and and we're learning so much more about it. It's still early in the research, at least. Yeah, currently there's been different waves of psychedelic research, but currently, it's still very new. And there's not that many studies. So we're learning.
1
Speaker 1
10:19
Have you taken any psilocybin or ketamine?
2
Speaker 2
10:25
not ketamine. No, I've had psilocybin years ago. And, yeah, definitely, I've experienced that the ego dissolution that's spoken of and, you know, always gaining something out of it, some kind of transformation. And it's also just a way to connect, feel that interconnection with nature and others as well. So that's a big part of it too, as well that I'm not so disconnected as sometimes the mind can make us think and we got kind of stuck in our little boxes throughout the day. So it is a good way of connecting with nature and, and the natural world as well. So that's something that I find super beneficial.
1
Speaker 1
11:07
Yes, yes, me too. I've taken I've taken LSD. I've taken psilocybin many, many years ago and found it helpful. Some interesting experiences, some of them I still remember. That was very good. On your website, just to change the topic here a little bit on your website. It says Dr. Natalie Dyer is a shamanic Reiki master, integrating the scientific and the mystical. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
2
Speaker 2
11:39
Yeah. So shamanic Reiki master, so the basis is in Reiki I should say. So I'm trained up until master level of Reiki. And I got into that kind of serendipitously and just met somebody who was a Reiki Master. And he was just really in tune with what I had going on energetically at the time. And I thought, oh, maybe there's something to this. So I took that training. But I found it was so much more than I thought it's it's so much more than just channeling energy, which it is, if I maybe I should describe Reiki as a biofeedback therapy. Yeah, I don't feel therapy from Japan. It's 100 years old now at this point, but it's based in a practices that had been done for 1000s of years, like Chi Gong, for example. And the idea is that anytime we have disease in the body, or we're unwell, there's an imbalance in our lifeforce energy. So that's called many different things, chi prana. Spirit. So that's the basis for these practices. And so Reiki works to bring balance back to that energy system and hoping that the physical system corresponds with with that shift that positive ship. So you learn to tap into the intention of channeling this energy, which is infinite and everywhere. That's the idea. And you either give this energy to yourself, so you're just kind of bringing this energy through into your body, or you give it to another person. So that's basically the idea. And it works is really similar where the shamanic shamanic aspect comes in.
I've trained in different techniques with that as well. But it is kind of already like shamanism. And what I found when I started doing Reiki was really experiencing the unconscious of the other person, whether like their programming, there may be past traumas, different things that they had going on below the surface that was causing these imbalances in the energy system. So it might not be enough to just rebalance the system or give them more lifeforce, for example, but underlying there's these causes. So what has caused that imbalance to begin with, so and this can come during Reiki itself, but I feel like it corresponds with these shamanic practices of journeying into their more into their subconscious layers into their mental state in their programming, what maybe happened to them as a child that caused them to have a certain belief, for example, issues with self worth could come up. And you can see that maybe when, when they were younger, something happened. And so that's driving an imbalance in their energy. So really working to not just balanced energy, but find what what that causes for that disruption and then communicating that with them. And so sometimes there is like a psychotherapeutic component to it as well. So that's kind of the blend of doing the shamanic approaches with the Reiki So addressing those underlying wounds, so to speak, or in some traditions is called soul loss or loss. So power. So there's different different reasons for this imbalance that we can uncover when we take this deeper approach.
1
Speaker 1
15:09
So do you actually touch people's bodies? Or do you just sort of put your hands close to their bodies? But it can,
2
Speaker 2
15:18
yeah, it can be done either way. So I do a lot of my sessions distance, so I'm not touching them. But if I had an in person sessions, which I do, sometimes, it's gentle touch. So it can be just on the surface or it can be slightly above. And it depends on the body area depends on their sensitivity, sometimes directly on is too much. Could be intense. So you want to hover above? And yeah, it can be done through distance just through connecting with consciousness.
1
Speaker 1
15:51
Can you can you tell me about a recent patient that you have treated? And how, how it sort of went on? You know, the Sure, yeah.
2
Speaker 2
16:04
So I had a client. Normally, I don't do this kind of approach, unless it's something very serious. So I had a client who asked for a session for their friend so that normally, you want the client to approach you, but it was an instance of like a stroke, and they were in a coma. Yeah, so I helped with them through that proxy. So when you when you do a session like that, you're kind of sending Reiki to the friend and the person who's asking, so it's like this combination. And so she was there are a lot of impressions that came to me and I don't want to, I guess, give away too much of your situation. But when I do a distance session, a lot more information comes in because I'm not moving around the room, for example, it's a very mental, very connected in the heart and the consciousness rather than like moving my hands. So it's really a lot of inward, inward work. So I felt all kinds of sensations with her and a lot of messages that came through. Like this was sort of a wake up call for her to get more healthy. I didn't know anything about this person. I just knew that she was in this coma.
1
Speaker 1
17:24
He was me. Could you could you see her? Now? You couldn't see her? Now,
2
Speaker 2
17:29
I had my friends sent me a photo of her and the location. So I just had the photo and location and the name and the name. Yeah.
1
Speaker 1
17:39
And you started getting some impression of the person just buy that. Yeah. Okay, go on. I just wanted to make sure I understand. So you were not in, in for Well, you were not actually seeing the person only
17:57
photo live. Yeah. Okay.
1
Speaker 1
18:00
So then, then you started getting sort of impressions of what is wrong with fear?
2
Speaker 2
18:06
Well, yeah, I guess you could say What's wrong with her but it's more like a story around story. Oh, yeah. I guess Yes. Yeah. It's like a story around the whole situation. Inflammation. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So this whole thing comes in where she's she's she's very stressed. This is like a wake up call, she needs to get healthy, maybe there's some substance use and so all of this comes in also this feeling of like a fire I remember just my head being like fire fire fire and like fear associated with that like this emergence. So I just during these sessions, I'm should say I'm continually sending love this loving energy. And as I do that, I'm connecting with them because that's what love is, it's its connection. And as I connect this information comes in, that can hopefully help them so yeah, this, this whole wake up call this fire, this need to get healthy. And the doctors I should say, mentioned, she had like a 10% chance of like, coming out of this coma. So it was like not looking good. But I felt like while she's in this coma, that on the other side, or wherever her consciousness is that there's this like bargaining this conversation going on, where where we have these guides and they're like, You got to make these changes or, you know, you're not going to come back kind of thing. So I've read about these kinds of things with near death experiences and stuff but so it was like that it was like I was witnessing a near death experience of hers. So I saw that her life could be quite different. I saw her in nature, these flowers and and that it's all about choices. So that she's getting this opportunity to make changes to be healthy and to live a happy life. So I kept sending the love. And then I wrote all this up to her friend. And her daughter, I was also dealing with her daughter. And they said, it describes her perfectly, there's a lot of information, I'm not remembering about this session, but it ends up being quite a long description of what's going on. And you just hope that it makes sense for them, you just hope this is true, because you just just trying to help as much as possible. And it's definitely not a judgmental thing. It's like, it's all around the love. It's like, we all have our journeys and our mistakes and everything that has led us to where we're at, and we're, why we're suffering. And so it's really about, you know, make the hopefully you can make these changes, you know, maybe I can help you make these changes. And you can have a beautiful life, like, you just need to believe in that. So she ended up coming back, which was great and fully recovering, it took some time, there was one side of her body that was not functioning as well. And the interesting thing about this session is that I did multiple ones, and it was kind of might not have been the healthiest approach for me because I was very involved. I was very, like a che Okay, today, like I kept checking in, like, instead of like a session, and then that's it. So I stayed connected, which wasn't, I wouldn't recommend doing that. But I did anyway. And I started to experience her symptoms. And that's where Oh, yeah, it's, that's not, that's not what it's supposed to be like, you can have that in the session and kind of know, for the empathy, like, Oh, I'm feeling this. But if you're carrying that throughout your day, so I wouldn't recommend doing that at all. But it was pretty profound. Because when she woke up, I experienced that I was just sitting on my sofa, I don't even know what I was doing, maybe reading or something. And I kind of went blind on one side. And I Yeah, it was pretty scary. I'm like, am I having a stroke, like what's going on here, I started feeling tingling in my, in my head and. And then I realized, oh, it's it's her and maybe she's waking up. And sure enough at that time, she was waking up, and she couldn't see out of one eye. And so, oh, it's really good to be able to identify that because I do I need to call it. But it's like an imprint, you just kind of like it's washing over us this experience of what they're experiencing. And this, this connection, I want to emphasize does happen through love through the emotion. That's what's connecting us. So it's similar to a mother knowing when something's happened to her child, like picking that up, there's an entanglement, there's a connection that happens through the love through the closeness. So it's through connecting into that, that you have access to all this. So it's like a safe mechanism. Because I feel that it's always a benevolent thing. So my intention is always pure for them, just out of love, just wanting them to have a good happy life. And that's connecting me rather than someone who wants to manipulate others or you know what I mean? Like that's a disconnect in energy. So I don't think the strength the ability to pick up that stuff happens when you're in that kind of state. So I think it's kind of a beautiful thing and but really important to not stay connected like that when you're not in the session with someone who's who's a client and not like a close loved one. Because you don't want to be picking that stuff up. So yeah, no, that's.
1
Speaker 1
23:43
So when did you first discovered that you had this ability to tune in to another person far, far, far away?
2
Speaker 2
23:54
Through doing the Reiki training, so I had I had experience intuition as a child, so I'd have intuitive dreams of what my mom, I remember one, which was, so it's so mundane. It's what my mom was getting at the grocery store when I was like 10. I just, I was like, Oh, she bought two bunches of grapes. I had this dream. She comes with two bunches of grapes. And I'm like, that's weird. She always gets one bunch. And then I woke up and sure enough, she's like, I got two grapes. So little silly things like that. I was like, Okay, so there was some connection there. I had that as a child. But I didn't do any healing kind of work beyond just having these intuitions. So it wasn't until I took the Reiki training, and I think 2010 And the second level is about connecting at a distance. So Reiki level two, there's level one, level two and then masters. And the level two is about connecting to others across distance. And that really opened me up that really connected me in a different way than than the level one did. In terms of like picking up people's situations, their emotions and and there's their story, essentially. And I think everybody has that ability for sure. I would never say that it's like a special thing. It's just something that I've tuned into and tapped into. But there's millions of Reiki people, and I think everybody, we're all connected fundamentally, that's what I believe. So everybody has the ability to tune into other people in that way.
1
Speaker 1
25:28
So how would the person listening to this two hour talk? And who might be interested in developing that faculty? How would they go about it?
2
Speaker 2
25:41
Well, they could find a Reiki teacher in their area. That's one way. That's the way I did it. So I think it's, I think it's a good approach rather than taking maybe some kind of mediumship course, right? Because it does give you that love energy, the the healing component, that connection, rather than just like trying to get the information, and then whatever you do with that, so I would recommend doing like one of the healing arts to connect in that way. And definitely meditation, whatever form of meditation works for you, really, really helps because you gotta get your own mental chatter, your own ego, that has to step aside. If I'm thinking about something I'm going to do after the session or, or my own stuff, the energy is just really, really minimal, that connection is not there. So you have to kind of dissolve into the other person, in a sense into their own situation. So meditation can really, really help to be able to step outside of that mental chatter that goes on most of the day. So whether that's mindfulness meditation, Vipassana, any anything really, that allows you to tap into the stillness, to the witness, consciousness will really, really help as well.
1
Speaker 1
27:04
So I understand that you also conduct research on universal love, unconditional love that you have, you have devised the universal love scale. Can you tell me more about that?
2
Speaker 2
27:18
Yeah, that actually flows really nicely, because I am talking a lot about that, that love and universal love is unconditional love. That just is so for all of existence, or just as a state of being, as opposed to romantic love or where it's being projected onto someone. And there's attachment and all kinds of drama and stuff. So this is just Yeah, pure unconditional love. And it plays a big role in a lot of the transformation that occurs during near death experiences, or it's really key in energy healing, like I've been mentioning. It's an experience that happens during psychedelic therapy. So it's no, some say it's the fundamental nature of reality that love builds everything. It's the binding force of all of existence, for example, it's a fundamental nature of reality. So myself and Mario Beauregard, and Gary Schwartz, my colleagues decided that this was an important enough concept that we should scientifically validated. Because if you're going to research anything, you need to have it as a construct, it needs to say, Okay, this actually does exist as a thing. So that's where the universal love scale comes in, as you need to be able to measure it in some way. And like, pretty much all psychological studies, it's self report questionnaire, it's a subjective experience. You can't, you know, stick a plug in someone and measure universal love yet. So it's really about asking the individual questions, and then they rate it, and then we can get a level of universal love. And the idea is to have something to show that we have increased it. So if we want to create a meditation, a universal love meditation, how do we know that that's working? We have this scale. So it's kind of silly to measure love, but it's a way for us to say that we're increasing it so that we can make a better world essentially. So the idea with the scale is that there are these different factors. When you're embodying universal love, you have certain beliefs, thoughts, feelings, your move to certain behaviors, so helping others for example. So there are questions around all these different aspects of the embodiment of universal love. So I am motivated to help others or it's easy for me to love others. I believe we're all wanting these kinds of statements that connect to different aspects of the embodiment of universal love. And then we found that that's related to a Um, while being positive mood, finding meaning in life, feeling satisfied with your life, it's a, it's the opposite of or negatively correlated with things like aggression and anger and narcissism. And so we we validated it as a construct and show that it's a reliable, valid measure to use. And then we can develop like, we've developed a universal love meditation that we haven't tested yet, but we will to see, does that actually show improvements on that scale? And what is universal love correlated with physiologically just open question, do we see changes in oxytocin, for example, what's going on in the brain in these states? There's a lot of questions that we can ask around it. But ultimately, the goal is to find a way to increase universal love to increase people's understanding of interconnection. It's a big goal, but it's a little bit that we can do to maybe help make the world better, essentially.
1
Speaker 1
31:06
Right, right. Well, that's wonderful. You mentioned Gary Schwartz. Is he the same Gary Schwartz, who was the Heart Math Institute?
2
Speaker 2
31:14
I don't know if he's done work with Heart Math, actually. But he's done a lot of work with mediumship. And yeah, he's part of the post materialist movement, energy. He's done some energy medicine, research as well. He does a lot of work with East developing, trying to develop communication with disincarnate entities, I guess, angels or other beings from the other side. That's a focus for him right now with a project called the soul phone. So I haven't spoken with him in a while. But he is doing work on that, which is really interesting. So he's, yeah, he's, he was at Harvard as well. And he's done a lot of really good work. So
1
Speaker 1
31:55
what what did you say that he's presently working on? What was it cell phone or
2
Speaker 2
32:01
cell phone? Are you Oh, yeah, that's what he calls it.
1
Speaker 1
32:05
So far. Okay. I'm just going to look into that. So coming back to you. Was there anything in your own background that you think contributed to your interest in this subject?
2
Speaker 2
32:21
Yeah, yeah. So my mother was always very psychologically oriented, in terms of like psychotherapy, self help. So she was always reading books on psychology. And we had a family history of some mental illness, for various reasons. I mean, everything's genetic environment, trauma, these kinds of things. So her father was bipolar brothers, schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, anxiety, all of these things, on my mom's side of the family, which made her and myself very interested in treatments. So ways of understanding the mind and cycle analyzing and so I had a background and interest in the mind and psychology and, and then on my own side, I had anxiety and depression, through just childhood, like, just a rough childhood, like a lot of dysregulated parents, so a lot arguing in the home and just like, extreme emotions, so unpredictability, so that developed anxiety as a young age, it's like, when something's gonna happen, when it's somebody's gonna get mad, that kind of thing. And I originally took a psychological approach to that, and so had psychotherapy when I was younger. And, but I found like, like we mentioned earlier, that nothing really got to the root of anything, I felt like, I could maybe handle it for a bit, and then something would happen. And somehow I got I think it was yoga that really had a friend that convinced me to go to a yoga class. And I felt that something shifted there that there was something deeper, like in this energy system that I talked about, that it was getting at the root of something, something's shifting through this practice. So I discovered meditation and Reiki and so it really came from, I guess, looking for something to help with anxiety. But I was always interested in these topics, mentally. But it wasn't until I did the practice of yoga and meditation that I felt the connection between the spirituality and the psychology, if that makes sense. But I was just naturally interested from a young age and questions of life after death and consciousness and intuition. All of that was always of interest to me as long as I can remember anyway. So the mind and spirit life all of that was just interesting too. A and I spent a lot of time reading and analyzing myself.
1
Speaker 1
35:06
Where do you where do you take your university training?
2
Speaker 2
35:10
I did my bachelor's in biology and psychology at University of Toronto. Oh, and then I did my PhD in Neuroscience at Queen's University in Kingston, Canada. And then I did postdoc work in psychology and Integrative Medicine at Harvard University and Harvard Medical School.
1
Speaker 1
35:31
So the fistula that you mentioned in Toronto and Queens University, from what I know they would be pretty sort of materialistic. Very, right. Very non spiritual. Yeah, definitely. So then was Harvard different?
2
Speaker 2
35:49
It was, yeah, surprisingly, definitely, especially at the medical school. So when I first got there, well, yeah, just to speak about the other two first. So at University of Toronto, it was just, I was disenchanted by the the system there because everything, all of the stuff that we've talked about us just pseudoscience, it's nonsense as Yeah, so that was like, boring. Like, okay, right. And then when I went to Queens, my advisor, Janet Menard, she, she was very open minded, and she, she did yoga, she did meditation. And when I told her I was doing Reiki, she was very supportive. And all my brother, I think, does Reiki. And so even though the education and most of the other professors and my colleagues were materialists, my advisor wasn't so much. So that really, really helped. So I felt like I had support with the way we started looking at things around that time, which is when I started doing yoga and Reiki and then I got to Harvard and I was expecting more of that. But I got the opposite. There was a lot of Oh, I love Reiki and oh, yeah, I've had this experience and this and that. So there was a an open mindedness and a real what I would call like a real intelligence rather than just a a programmed materialist intelligence. So
37:24
what year were you at Harvard?
2
Speaker 2
37:27
It was 2013 2020 1805 years.
1
Speaker 1
37:35
Yeah. I was there. In 1965. It was very different. Yeah. Very, it was totally psychoanalytic. Yeah. Yeah. Very well, of course, you know, I was in the Department of Psychiatry, but it was strictly psychoanalytic, and very rigid. Very. Nobody ever talked about spiritual. Anything to do with spirituality. No.
38:13
Yeah. Interesting.
1
Speaker 1
38:14
So you know, so you were there. What about 50 years later? Right. Yeah. I guess things have developed in the right way. Well, I'm I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that. So coming back to you then. For a second. If you were to take this journey all over again. Would you do anything different?
Hmm. That's a good question. Like everything over again, are my academics.
1
Speaker 1
38:44
Anything you like, you know, anything? Yeah. Anything? Would you do anything different?
2
Speaker 2
38:55
My first instinct is no, because I'm really happy with how things are right. I would do more of the Reiki than I have done. I mean, yeah, I find that really rewarding, connecting with people in that way, helping people in that way. And maybe write about it more. I don't write as much as I like to writing more. And those are my basic day to day things where I'm like, oh, I want to write more. And I want to do this more. So sharing more of that. Yeah, sharing more of that, that knowledge and experience as well. Do you
1
Speaker 1
39:38
do you yourself receive regular Reiki treatments
2
Speaker 2
39:46
on and off, so I did, for a period have it every, maybe a couple months or so but now I haven't gone for a session myself in a while. But as a Reiki practitioner, it's really emphasized to do self Reiki. So making sure that I check in and do that for myself is good as well, but going to a session it's been a few months since I've gone to one but when I first started doing Reiki I didn't I was imbalanced in that way I gave Reiki I didn't receive Reiki except when I was giving Reiki Right. Right. So and that's just a an issue of lack of self care or something. I don't know. It's just Oh, yeah. Why don't I go get rich?
1
Speaker 1
40:29
Well, you were you were you were busy having a baby. So we can't let
40:33
that's recent. Yeah.
1
Speaker 1
40:37
Well, will you be giving Reiki to your baby? To your child? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Trainer and as well. What about your husband? How does he feel about your work?
2
Speaker 2
40:48
Oh, he's supportive. Yeah, he's a natural he can. He's not trained in Reiki, but he's definitely sending the energies. He's Yeah, he's a meditator and very supportive. He's a visionary artist. So he does a lot of art around energy, chakras and power animals. And so very similar interests.
1
Speaker 1
41:14
If you if you could have dinner with any three people in history, dead or alive, who would it be?
2
Speaker 2
41:25
Okay, gotay? Yes. William James, I could change this later. This is in the West,
41:33
you can change that later. Yes, absolutely.
2
Speaker 2
41:44
Maybe all this Huxley. That would be interesting. And I'm thinking along, you know, the stuff we've been already thinking about William James, I was in William James Hall at Harvard. So they're fresh in my mind. But I mean, Jesus, you know, there's so many, there's so many possibilities there. I'm taking right now the more intellectual science and spirituality approach with who I'm meeting with.
1
Speaker 1
42:10
Okay, this is an easier question. What would you what would you like to be most remembered for?
2
Speaker 2
42:18
Hmm, oh, that's really, really good. I love that. Because that's helps me like realign my work. So for, I guess, providing evidence that we sort of that our consciousness survives death, that we're more than our bodies. So I think that's really, really important to me, to bring that kind of deeper truth and joy, to help reduce suffering in that way. So just a personal example, my mother passed away a few years ago, and she was on her deathbed, so to speak, and she had family there. And she said to her brothers and her mother that I'm, I'm not scared to die, they asked her if she were scared. And she's like, I'm not scared. Because of everything. Natalie taught me because of that. So to me, that was the ultimate, like, if I could do that for dinner for my mom, that's amazing. We were really close. But if I could do that for more people, that's a really, really good goal for me, I would say. So helping people to reduce suffering and fear of death would be amazing. Yeah.
1
Speaker 1
43:34
So when you speak, when you speak of consciousness surviving, would that be like individual consciousness? Or does it just go back? Like into the ocean of consciousness?
2
Speaker 2
43:46
Yeah, that's a really, really good question. And I, I don't know the answer to that. But I do believe that we always have access to the lower self. It's similar to when people get mediumship readings, for example, I believe that the loved one that's passed on is so much greater than their persona was on earth, but they kind of put that on to communicate. So if I feel that we was both, like, we go into the ocean of being into the one mind or the one consciousness, but we can also play in those roles, as well. So at least that's what I think may be the case. And I've read that that may be the case in the apana shots, for example. I think there's a passage in there that you always have your individuality still within that. So I feel like it's both and some people think it's sort of a graduation thing. Like maybe when you pass you're still that self and then you slowly go up the level so to speak, I suppose with green incarnation. Some believe that you work towards not being reincarnated. So you wouldn't be taking on these personas anymore. You would just to because they are connected with suffering. So anytime we're incarnating or suffering, so to end that cycle, you would stop taking on these roles. So I don't know. What do you think?
45:26
I don't know, either.
45:28
Yeah, I mean,
1
Speaker 1
45:29
I don't know. All we can do. All we can do is hope. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Just hope for the best. Well, thank you. I know you must be very busy. So I will let you go. Thank you. Thank you. Very good. I really enjoyed our conversation. And thank you and learned a lot. And I think it gives us a lot to think about. It's, it's really wonderful to hear you talk about love and universal love and how important that is in your life. And I hope that that other people will follow in your footsteps because the way things are going in the world we certainly needed, certainly needed. So my guest next week, will be Professor Mark Rosenbaum, the College of Business Hawaii Pacific University, with whom I will discuss how digital technologies including mobile applications, social media, and online games have impacted the ways that people communicate, learn, play, date, and entertain themselves. We shall talk of Newton's law of unintended consequences, which I think is really really interesting, and really applies in terms of what's happening in the world today, and digital technology failures. I hope you can tune in next week. And once again, Natalie, thank you so much. Thanks, Thomas. Take care bye bye. Bye. Bye bye.
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