What if the story of Atlantis was deeply connected to our own embryology, and the myths that surround it held the key to our prenatal development? Join me in an enlightening conversation with Dr. John Bonaducci, an expert in the captivating field of Mythobiogenesis, which he created during his doctoral studies. Discover how John transitioned from liturgy to mythology, connected with the Joseph Campbell Foundation, and developed his work on prenatal psychology - all while uncovering the power of storytelling and the significance of mythological studies for understanding our place in the universe.
As we delve into the fascinating connections between Plato's mythology of Atlantis and embryology, Dr. Bonaducci explains how the story reflects the process of cellular mitosis and conforms to the trauma theories of Donald Kallshed. We also explore the implications of Freud's idea of being born as a "tabula rasa" and how John's personal experiences - from his parents' tumultuous relationship to his mother's nine miscarriages - shaped his worldview and experiences in the womb.
Finally, we examine the importance and implications of John's work on Mythobiogenesis, discussing the origin of Plato's "caste system" and its impact on society. This thought-provoking conversation serves as a testament to the power of storytelling and personal introspection. So come along and immerse yourself in this captivating exploration of myth, memory, and the human experience.
If you liked this podcast
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/contributors/thomas-r-verny-md
What if the story of Atlantis was deeply connected to our own embryology, and the myths that surround it held the key to our prenatal development? Join me in an enlightening conversation with Dr. John Bonaducci, an expert in the captivating field of Mythobiogenesis, which he created during his doctoral studies. Discover how John transitioned from liturgy to mythology, connected with the Joseph Campbell Foundation, and developed his work on prenatal psychology - all while uncovering the power of storytelling and the significance of mythological studies for understanding our place in the universe.
As we delve into the fascinating connections between Plato's mythology of Atlantis and embryology, Dr. Bonaducci explains how the story reflects the process of cellular mitosis and conforms to the trauma theories of Donald Kallshed. We also explore the implications of Freud's idea of being born as a "tabula rasa" and how John's personal experiences - from his parents' tumultuous relationship to his mother's nine miscarriages - shaped his worldview and experiences in the womb.
Finally, we examine the importance and implications of John's work on Mythobiogenesis, discussing the origin of Plato's "caste system" and its impact on society. This thought-provoking conversation serves as a testament to the power of storytelling and personal introspection. So come along and immerse yourself in this captivating exploration of myth, memory, and the human experience.
If you liked this podcast
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/contributors/thomas-r-verny-md
So good morning. This is Pushing Boundaries, a podcast about pioneering research, breakthrough discoveries and unconventional ideas. I'm your host, dr Thomas R Verney. My guest today is Dr John Bonaducci. Welcome, dr John Bonaducci, it's a pleasure. May I call you John, of course. Thank you, and please call me Thomas, i shall. Great, john has his doctorate in mythological studies with an emphasis in depth psychology. His specific expertise lies in his work on mythobiogenesis, a term in theory he coined during his doctoral studies. John is currently a regular contributor to the Joseph Campbell Foundation through his writing, as well as a lecturer presenting at both academic and religious conferences. Have I got that right so far? That's good. Yes, okay, great. So just a few little questions. What is the Joseph Campbell Foundation?
Speaker 2:Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell? Yes, it is a foundation devoted to sustaining the memory of the man and of his work, and his pioneering work in particular in mythology. It's a group of we call ourselves a community of individuals. We look for those ideas of Campbell's that make our lives more interesting and fuller and make our understanding of our place in the universe more comprehensible.
Speaker 1:Well, yes, that's great. So obviously you have also been influenced by Jungian psychology.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I read that in your dissertation. And are you also associated with the Pacifica Institute?
Speaker 2:Yes, i graduated with my PhD from Pacifica.
Speaker 1:Right, and that was in 19,. that was in 2020, was it? Yes, so that's only about three years ago. Yes, i'm a baby. Yes, but you don't look like a baby.
Speaker 2:I'm not, i'm an old baby Thomas.
Speaker 1:So what did you do? if I may ask, before we get into mythology, what did you do before you went for your PhD studies?
Speaker 2:Well, of course, that's of some interest, I think, to your listeners, because I am the source of this subject And what I did was I have been in liturgy for most of my professional life.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:I have been doing large scale sacramental enterprises for the Catholic Church and composing music for these liturgies and conducting choirs. In fact, you might say I've been absolutely immersed in liturgy for the last 35 years. And in the meantime, and because of the nature of your question, i feel invited to tell a little of my story. Yes, please do. Please do Well. My academic trajectory is not the one that you want for your own children. My children wrapped up their four-year schooling Dominic was out in four years from Catholic University of America. My daughter, cecilia CC, as we call her, went right on schedule and is now an OB-GYN, which is interesting to me.
Speaker 2:I was not so fortunate. My life was often accompanied by chaos of my own making, And I managed to avoid getting a Bachelor of Arts until I was 40 years old And I had two children already. I got it from UCLA in history By the time I was 58, I felt the need to learn about music, since they were hiring me as a musician And I didn't really consider myself a musician. So I applied myself And then in my 60s, I turned to mythology mythological studies, not by accident. Not by accident And not because I required a PhD. I needed to consolidate the information that I was putting together on my own.
Speaker 1:So were you developing this idea that then you described in detail in your dissertation? Were you developing that for some years before you started your studies?
Speaker 2:I don't want to sound overly dramatic, but I've been carrying this on my shoulders in isolation for at least 30 years. Shall I tell you the origin story? Sure, yes, please. Okay. Well, in my family of origin, what we valued was the story. My father was a wonderful writer for television, and so was my mother, betty and Joe, and that's what I valued too. You know, a good story and good jokes. By the way, paid our rent. We worked very hard. It's the only survival strategy I knew. Come up with the one liner that is as precise as Haiku but makes the guy with the beer in his hand laugh.
Speaker 2:That's what I endeavored to be, and I endeavored to be a storyteller, make a lot of money, but I wanted my degree after all. I dropped out once and then I went back in my late 30s, and you know they require, of undergrad grads, a diversified education. Scientists have to take English literature. English literature grads have to take astronomy. You know, thomas, that's brilliant. That's the only reason I have this theory.
Speaker 2:I'm sitting at UCLA in a guy's class. His name was Dr Durstenfeld. I'll never forget him. He had a real way of bringing this to life, and I'm listening to these cellular scenarios, but all I know about life is how it falls into two and three act structures. And as I'm listening to this story, particularly of reproduction, i'm seeing stories, i'm seeing story templates, i'm seeing the monomyth, which underlies Joseph Campbell's very famous monomyth monomyth, rather And I'm sitting there in class And it occurs to me that the stories that I love from mythology but it was a hobby at the time seemed to comport with these stories of biology. I felt basically very isolated. There's no one I could tell, but I did not drop this thread for the next 30 years. And now I'm talking to Thomas Verney.
Speaker 1:Yes, did you make a full stop at that sentence? I guess you did.
Speaker 2:Because it deserves a full stop. You are the known as the father of prenatal psychology. Yes, for that, my inclusion on your guest list is some significance to me Well, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, speaking of that, you know reading your dissertation, which, by the way, i think is fantastic I mean, it just blows the ball out of the ballpark But I was looking for some references that I'm familiar with that you don't seem to reference Now, like Lloyd DeMuz. Have you read Lloyd DeMuz?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:So Lloyd DeMuz has written incredible books on psycho history. His book in 1982 was called The Foundation of Psycho History, And then in 2002, The Emotional Life of Nations. And all of that he takes back to prenatal events, just like you do in terms of biology. And then another person who has written a lot along the same lines is a German scientist, psychiatrist and psychoanalyst by the name of Ludwig Janus J-A-N-U-S. Are you familiar with him?
Speaker 2:I am familiar And I have recently said I did him in a paper.
Speaker 1:Good, ok, because he has done a lot of work along those lines. And then the third person that I would recommend, in case you have not come across him, is David Wasdell. Do you know him? I do not. Oh, ok, w-a-s-d-e-l-l. David Wasdell, i have a German book by him. Do you speak German?
Speaker 2:I do not.
Speaker 1:No, well, anyway, this will be recorded so you will be able to look it up. It's called The Prenatalin und Perenatalin. I will translate Wurzeln von Religion und Krieg, and the translation would be the Prenatal and Perenatal Roots of Religion and War. So I can't wait. All of that would go extremely well with all the things that you have described, and so let's talk about that a little bit. So, in plain English for our viewers and listeners, how would you describe mythobiogenesis? What is it?
Speaker 2:Well, let me give you the short answer. Ok, and that's the long one, and then the long one. The short answer is we remember life at the cellular level and tell of the experience in stories, period. That is the essence of it. Now the longer compound sentence, if I can keep it in my noggin, as you pointed out, i'm an old baby. I'm a new PhD, at age 70. Much of what we call mythology, fairy tales and even sacred scripture derives from a fundamental impulse to tell in culturally specific ways, the universal intrauterine experience of life before birth.
Speaker 1:So you would have no trouble with my concept as explained in my recent book The Embodied Mind about cellular consciousness.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. I have no problem with it. I read the embodied mind And I have, And in fact it makes me a little bolder after reading it. It makes me bolder if someone says to me how can you, how can you posit the idea that a cell has memory, that a memory can persist from fertilization to birth and beyond? Well, I can now look them in the eye and say well, cellular memory is a given fact of life. The B cells and the two types of T cells that you referenced in your book Yes, That's the whole premise. That's how cells work.
Speaker 1:Yes, Yes, i love the sentence that you have in your dissertation. I'm just going to quote you. inside, the cell, which has been called the essential unit of life since the 17th century, is a place where proteins and stories come from. That's the form, and that essentially encapsulates your theory, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:I think so, more or less right, more or less More or less right. The rest of the dissertation actually is only enlarging on that sentence It is. There's lots of examples. So, in terms of, again, people who are not familiar with your work, what would be a good example, one that would be easily understood and explained, of myth or biogenesis?
Speaker 2:Well, i'm so glad you asked. The best ones are always the most visual ones. I think Noah, the story of Noah, is really a prime example. When I go to Noah, most of us divest ourselves of the Noah story by middle school, junior high. We say this is a silly old story, it has no basis in fact And if we're kind, we tell our parents that we think it's just symbolic and it's lovely, a lovely story, improbable and impossible. The bad news is, it's all true And it's you understand, that this big arc is not a big arc, it's a cell. The cell gives itself away in wonderful details that Well, every psychiatrist and psychologist knows that the littlest details in dream material and much of the Bible is from dream material.
Speaker 2:I don't think that needs to be argued. Many visitations of the supernatural come through dreams. But the first opening suggestion that he has to cover the arc in pitch, i love that detail. It reminds me of the hydrophobic lipid that will cover the cell. And as for a boat carrying every conceivable form of life, that's not a fiction If you consider that DNA as a molecule aboard this single cell will carry those two giraffes and those two monkeys and those two elephants. And, by the way that pairing is probably no accident either. They are arranged as homologs from the male and the female in preparation for mitosis, and it's a delightful and wonderful application of my theory.
Speaker 2:Now, as for the next stage, it gets a little grim, of course. Millions, millions of humans die. It's a very rageful God that can do every living thing to, and that's on us, that's our culture, that's how angry we are. We have to assign anger to these cellular events. It's not inherent, these are not angry events, but our culture finds the anger and places it there. An angry God that is so pathological that he must kill everything but one lineage, noah. That's how reproduction works. One survives, the rest die horribly in an acidic environment and wrong turns and darkness and the weak don't make it Only the fittest. So this one example of humanity continues floating, They say for 40 days, i'm suggesting it's seven days Until it finds its landing spot, not on Mount Ararat, and frankly, according to my research, there is no Mount Ararat.
Speaker 2:You cannot locate it with confidence. That's all right. It lands on Mount Ararat, but first they send out the doves to see if it's a safe place, if the conditions are right, well, and it brings. I believe it's the raven or the dove that brings back the olive branch, it says oh yeah, it's an acceptable environment. How wonderful when I read in my science text of the crosstalk between the endometrium and the approaching blastocyst. Imagine my delight in my theory when I saw that that's exactly what these two are doing. Yes, come land, it's all right. So the blastocyst lands, noah lands, and there is a hatching in both stories. And what does God tell these survivors? Well, he has a one word command multiply. What could be more congenial to a fertilized cell than the hand to multiply?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Actually, there's a little more to the story. in my opinion, it's even more wonderful because, as you know, at that point we're talking, if I have my facts straight, about gastrulation and a trilaminar disk from which all the various functions of the growing embryo will emerge ectoderm, endoderm, mesoderm. Respectively ectoderm, i think, is the neurological system. I won't go on because I'll make a mistake. I don't remember exactly how it did.
Speaker 1:You're doing fine so far.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thomas. Well, in the Moe's Anoa story, he sends out three sons to subdue and civilize the earth Ham, ham, ham Shem and Jabhat and they take over their three respective kingdoms. At this point I would rest my case for Noah. I think it's very arresting and one of the best and most comprehensible of my stories.
Speaker 1:Having put that out into the world, what have you done since?
Speaker 2:Since I wrote it.
Speaker 1:Since you wrote it? yes, Have you done any more research? Have you written any more papers or are you working on a new book?
Speaker 2:What's the future? The future for me is I would very much like my dissertation to be rewritten as a book. As you know, it is accessible. I would welcome that. I did have a wonderful opportunity for publishing at the International Journal of Prenatal Science. I wanted very much to be published there. It emanates from Athens, i think you're familiar with it very much, i think you're intimate.
Speaker 2:But I'll tell you I wanted to reach the heart of this conference at which I presented. I did present at the conference before I published in the journal. It became the focus of the paper, my presentation. I will tell you that I was very deliberate in taking one aspect of my theory to engage that community from Athens. I chose to apply my theory to Athens' favorite son, arguably, plato How Plato is responsible for forging an original myth which absolutely conforms to my overall theory. So at the moment yes, that's my latest. I've just received the word that it was published and I'm delighted I'm looking for my next step.
Speaker 1:So which mythological tale by Plato did you attack or address?
Speaker 2:All right. In a previous, which is supposed to be a late in life work of the great master is the story of Atlantis. Plato has a very ambiguous attitude toward mythology On one hand he despises it, on the other hand he's constantly generating new mythologies. So he created the story of Atlantis and I maintain first of all that it's not a late in life production By every Jungian criterion. It is the product actually of a anxious young mind somewhat traumatized by life because it conforms to the trauma theories of Donald Kallshed. Are you familiar with Donald Kallshed?
Speaker 1:No, no, i'm not.
Speaker 2:We study him at Pacifica. He's got great insights into trauma And he describes, as does Jung, that there are formations, geometric formations, the mandala which are generated spontaneously by the psyche to hold us together emotionally and psychically, and this story of Atlantis seems to conform to that. This is a young man's story, so I dispute the timeline. I have no right to, but I do. It's based on nothing more than that intuition. Actually, what I end up saying is that the story of Atlantis is pure embryology, start to finish. In other words, i admire the spirit of adventure that sends men and women looking from Crete to Santorini for the island of Atlantis. I think they can stop looking. I think it's nowhere, because it's everywhere. It's a cell, and what happens to it after fertilization? Should I elaborate on that?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, please do Yes.
Speaker 2:Thank you. The um Atlantis begins, according to Plato, as a marriage, actually seems more like a forcible sexual assault of a god, poseidon, and the sole inhabitant of this island, cleyto. Well, that's, that's a little suspect right there. I I don't know many islands that have sole inhabitants.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So there's your red flag for the psychoanalyst. Something's up. Her parents are dead, which is that's accurate for a cell. When they make a daughter cell, as we do call them, the parents contribution is over And we have a a. What we have is a god and a damsel And, in the words of my translation, a little prim and proper. he has to do with her, and what does he do? What happens next is lovely. He seals the island against further entry from would be suitors. Well, there is your zone of Pellucida, and for the same reason, poseidon is going to keep everybody out. You're not getting this girl, i got the girl. Just as in reproduction, the zone of Pellucida changes its constituents to make it impassable to prevent polysperm.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yes. And then what happens next is rather astonishing From my point of view. Visa V, my theory, and wonderful to relate They have twins, sets of twins. Well, it's a nice little suggestion of mitosis, which mitosis is all about twinning, for the most of your listeners will probably know that, but for those who don't, it's it's cell cleavage Right And the cells break into two and they're identical, and then those break into two. It's purely exponential.
Speaker 2:And then these kings. These are newfound kings. They're subordinate to Poseidon And, like the Noah story, ham Shem and Chafath, they migrate to their respective kingdoms where they take over their individual functions, remaining subordinate to the higher authority. Just as in our bodies, the kingdoms of the body must remain subordinate to a higher principle, for example the hindbrain at the top of the spine, and the autonomic functions, respiration and heartbeat. You want them to be subordinate, you want them to take an oath of field, which is precisely what these kings do In life. It's a matter of neurotransmitters and the spinal column sending messages to and fro.
Speaker 2:In the story, it is bull's blood being splashed against this column of a mysterious substance as a token of their fealty. And I could go on, but it gets a little dense with programs cell death. And I equate that with the kings' absolute power over the life and death of their own kingdoms. And yes, so I feel strongly not only that this is a story about mythobiogenesis Thomas, but that it speaks volumes about the influence of the preenate on the world into which it emerges. Where did Plato get his illiberal idea of absolute hierarchy in the Republic, as he calls his book, the Republic? Why are we in a caste system? He valorized the caste system.
Speaker 2:He, in another book, called it the myth of the metals, or it might even be in the Critias, the myth of the metals, where some of us are suited to be artisans, some as day laborers, some as soldiers and some supporting the higher principle of celebration and ruling. And so the whole idea that we've been mesmerized by since he first said it, john Locke, that we are a tabula rasa at birth, and according to Freud, for years after, i must respectively submit, respectively submit that this is an error, that we are not a tabula rasa at all at birth. In fact, plato derived these ideas from his experience of what it means It means to be a successful preenate, and carried it out into the world and has contributed a dominant idea ever since.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, a lot to a lot to absorb here. So, in terms of your own life, was there anything in your own background that you think contributed to your interest in this subject?
Speaker 2:You know, i've been wondering all week if you would ask me that because it's, by by its very nature, anecdotal, but my story is rather powerful. Yes, i alluded to my parents. Yes, you did. Both have gone on, both have passed on, and when I do talk about them I have the greatest reverence for having said that there was, there's was, a tumultuous relationship.
Speaker 2:My mother, according to everyone I've asked, had nine miscarriages before I was born, and the whole aspect of the haunted womb, i think, has some resonance with me. So we talk about the womb as a time of oceanic bliss. Thomas, it was not a time of oceanic bliss. Not at all. Not only was my father a heavy smoker, so I was ingesting these toxins third hand, but their arguments were lethal, literally lethal. I asked my mom before she passed if she thought the arguments with the dead contributed to the miscarriages, and she sadly agreed that they did. I think so. I think that I was jolted into a kind of pre sentience and pre awareness and a consciousness level not suitable for a developing embryo at all, aware of my confines, aware of dualism and more trinities and male arguing, a female defending herself and me. That's not a time you want to divide the world into a tripartite system, although it can lead to some powerful ideas later.
Speaker 2:Now, here's how I rediscovered my life in the womb. I was, i lived in Pennsylvania and I was terrified of the dark. I would wake up and I would see monsters on the wall, and I was so terrified that I and they were made of parts, different parts of things I'd seen, not in the womb but later, like teeth from a dog live next door or the jaws of a shark that mommy had shown me at the art museum in Philadelphia, and I put them together to create these monsters. And I asked my mother oh, mommy, please, please, i have a wonderful idea, mommy, i want you to have this rope.
Speaker 2:I break gave her a rope And I'm going to give it to you, mommy, and I want you to hold it in your bedroom And I will hold the other end in my bed And when I'm very afraid, i will pull on the rope, and you will pull on the rope on your end to assure me that you're there. Well, it doesn't take a PhD in mythological studies to discern the relationship to the umbilical cord. I wanted it. I wanted that security again, and and what did I done? I created a little liturgy based on my experience in the womb.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I took whatever was his hand, which was a course rope, to reconstitute this life, this experience. Now there's another invention of mine that came some years later, and this involved my siblings. I invented maybe the world's dumbest game, but my siblings loved it. My siblings are Anthony, danny and Cecilia, and we would lie on the bed crossways because it couldn't all fit in a little bed crossways and I'd shut out the lights and I would take two flashlights and I would shine them on the ceiling. The first one I'd shine was called Good Buzz Buzz.
Speaker 2:Good Buzz Buzz was often accompanied by song. My mother was an excellent singer. Good Buzz Buzz with dance. It's across the ceiling And it was very placid, even pastoral, and the kids would sing as we, as we watched the play of light. And then came bad Buzz Buzz, which was the other flashlight, and bad Buzz Buzz would sneak up on Good Buzz Buzz And she would be thrown out of the universe entirely and bad Buzz Buzz, with his erratic motions, would reign supreme until Good Buzz Buzz snuck up behind him and kicked him out of the arena and alone stood victorious. Silly game.
Speaker 2:Here's how I interpret that, although I suspect you're ahead of me. The Buzz Buzz to me is the vibrational aspect of their voices My mother's good Buzz Buzz, the singing Buzz Buzz, my father's somewhat tempestuous Buzz Buzz And my unstated hope that I made a value judgment. I essentially said mom is the holds a high moral card in all this, not my dad. And with this in mind, i think I was already on the road to my theoretical work at the age of seven when we moved out of that little brick house where I experienced those terrors and those insights. So I believe that answers your question as to Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, it does, it does, it does. So you mentioned the fact that you have one daughter who is an obstetrician And I forgot. And what does your son do?
Speaker 2:My son is a liaison between Verizon that behemoth of the phone company and connectivity. Now I speak as an older man, remembering when it was derived from the Bell telephone company. Now it is far beyond that And he is a liaison between that company and the Department of Defense, among other things. He's a highly placed young man and has worked as an assistant at the cabinet level in Washington for the Department of Transportation. He's a man at 33, 35 now who knows more about the world than I ever have.
Speaker 1:So my question is do any of your children, or both of them, follow sort of in your well, not exactly footsteps, but do they understand your work and do they agree with it?
Speaker 2:I think they understand it. Remember, they've had to endure it.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So it almost makes them laugh when I bring it up And I don't know what to say about my daughter. My whole life, my adult life, most of it has been spent in studying things as small as the little gap between the blastocyst and the endometrial lining, and that's an area of focus for my daughter. Now This is her life. She practices woman-centered medicine and deals with these very subjects at the level of genuine practicality. In a sense, i can't help but think I may have influenced her. Do they agree with it? They've never been so rude as to disagree.
Speaker 1:Okay, very good, very good, very good answer. So what would you say? you have learned from all the work that you have done so far, and hopefully there's much more ahead. But what have you learned so far about life that you can apply to the way you live, from all the work that you have done?
Speaker 2:I have learned this, and for your listeners who may be young especially, or choosing vocations, and for those who are older and sit in judgment of those who are young, be especially sensitive to the man or woman who has not apparently found their direction. You know, years ago a beloved man said to me, my father, i loved him. He said, john John, stop dabbling, you should be becoming good at one thing. And I wish I could have said to him Dad, i am becoming good at one thing, i just don't know what it is. Yet, and that has been my story, i finally found the tip of that intellectual period pyramid late in life. You know, the great pyramid at Giza is missing its top 15 feet. Well, my personal intellectual pyramid was missing its top 15 feet, but no longer, thomas. I found that tip. I found that summation of all my efforts in art and in biology and in music. There is a culminating point, and I believe I found it.
Speaker 1:Well, i think you have, and congratulations and thank you for sharing it with us and the world. I think that I would like very much to ask you perhaps to write a paper for the Preimperial and Atal Psychology Association Journal. I am the associate editor. If you could write a paper about mythology, particularly, you know, on the subjects that we have been speaking about, the journey of the blastocyst and all that stuff, that would be of great interest to our readers, i think, and you can just send the paper to me directly And I'll make sure Very good, i'll maybe I'll be honored.
Speaker 2:I'll be absolutely honored, and may I presume then that there might be an avenue for some cross talk between us? Yes, if I need to.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely Yes, because we are very much on the same page, if one can put it that way. Like you know, your interests and my interests are meeting. So, yes, definitely, let's stay in touch, and thank you, thomas. And this podcast will be, as they say, live, in other words on the Internet, next Sunday, so in a few days.
Speaker 2:Next Sunday.
Speaker 1:What time. Whenever I get to put it on Wonderful, probably by afternoon I will send you an email let you know exactly when it's on and where you can get it, thank you. Thank you for being with me and thank you for just opening up this whole new area of investigation. It's absolutely fascinating. I congratulate you on some very creative and far reaching, really, really important work. So thank you for doing this And let's stay in touch. Until then, take care Bye-bye. Thanks for to挺s it. Goodbye, commenters.