Wayne Altman. How to Stop Tinnitus, Worries and Insomnia with Melody Clouds

What if you could alter your mood, focus your mind, and even manage conditions like PTSD and depression just by listening to a certain type of sound? That's the revolutionary promise behind binaural beats, the focus of our conversation with Wayne Altman, the founder of Melody Clouds, on today's episode of Pushing Boundaries. Wayne shares his intriguing journey into the world of binaural beats, which began as a personal quest to manage his tinnitus, and evolved into an exploration of the incredible potential of these unique sound frequencies.

But Wayne's passion didn't stop there. He took the power of binaural beats and channeled it into his innovative project, Melody Clouds. This remarkable app promises to create a calming environment that helps babies self-soothe and regulate their sleep. Driven by his personal experience and his parents' influence, Wayne's passion for this project shines through as he explains how Melody Clouds stands out from his previous ventures.

Our conversation with Wayne also delves into a more futuristic topic, namely the blurring line between human and AI interactions. We discuss the anxiety induced by repetitive words and motions during conversations and the rapidly advancing world of AI. But amidst this digital evolution, Wayne insists on the importance of human interaction, emphasizing the value of personal contact and encouraging listeners to engage with him directly. Join our thought-provoking conversation on Pushing Boundaries and discover the world of binaural beats, the future of AI, and the enduring value of human connection.

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Transcript

Thomas R Verny MD: 0:02

Good morning. This is Pushing Boundaries, a podcast about pioneering research, breakthrough discoveries and unconventional ideas. I'm your host, Dr. Thomas R Verny. My guest today is Wayne Altman, the founder of Melody Clouds. Wayne suffers from tinnitus and was looking for relief when he noticed that the only way he could stop experiencing extreme ringing in both ears was when he listened to binaural beats Now, I'm not familiar with that term and will ask Wayne to explain that or specific tones of music. That's when he realized he could create something for people not limited to this one condition, but to share the healing and beneficial effects of this technology with everyone who wants it. Wayne, may I call you Wayne Altman? I'll give that to absolutely 100%. Okay, please call me Thomas. Okay,. So to start with, Wayne, welcome. Thank you very much. Am I pronouncing binaural beats

Wayne Altman: 1:20

Yeah, binaural beats, you got it 100%.

Thomas R Verny MD: 1:22

Yeah, just like it sounds Okay, so tell me, what that is.

Wayne Altman: 1:26

Okay, a very simple explanation. Binaural beat is two frequency, one frequency in one ear, one frequency in another ear Closely related. your brain chooses to split the difference. rather than fight between the frequencies, it just chooses to split the difference and give you a frequency. Our brain is an electrical appliance and our thoughts are transmitted, our emotions are transmitted. It's all electrical. If you can manipulate the frequency of that electrical charge, you can manipulate the frequencies of people, their emotions You can. there's quite a number of effects that you can have over someone in treating whatever it is that they're going through, whether it's mood. our tagline is take charge of your mood. If you're sad and you don't want to be, then you can use binaural beats and uplift your mood. If they use it a lot. with the PTSD patients, a lot of clinically depressed people are starting to catch on to binaural beats and very similar to the way we interact with music.

Thomas R Verny MD: 2:43

So there are. I know nothing about music, i mean definitely not, so I would imagine there are thousands of frequencies.

Wayne Altman: 2:53

There are The ones that we're paying attention to most. We've got probably, i don't know, two or three dozen that really have effect on focus. Turns out that you've heard the term he's in the zone, she's in the zone, normally talking about scoring events, right, yeah, turns out that the zone is an actual place. You can enter the zone, you can exit the zone And it's a great deal of focus. In other words, it's a very high, concentrated focus. You can recreate that pretty much at will.

Thomas R Verny MD: 3:31

So how did you manage to end up with the frequencies that produce these results that you are describing?

Wayne Altman: 3:41

So this research has been going on since the mid-70s. In what's the word I'm looking for? Really concentrated efforts. They're really concentrating their efforts since the mid-70s. They had made several movies about this Scanners one. They're really trying to get into the thought control, mind control. That was another failure. The military was doing a lot of experiments on this kind of stuff. So I think that's a great thing, but the military was doing a lot of experiments on this kind of stuff. What they did succeed, however, was in the therapeutic aspects, and also they use it a lot with trying to scare the enemy or annoy the enemy. You can really hit frequencies that are very detrimental to people. Yes, yes, yes.

Thomas R Verny MD: 4:41

So how did you arrive at the frequencies that you use?

Wayne Altman: 4:46

So here that's an interesting story. So you mentioned it. I have tinnitus And you're the first person to interview me that has actually said the word correctly. I had one person say tinnitus. I mean tendinitis, tinnitus.

Thomas R Verny MD: 5:00

Five minutes.

Wayne Altman: 5:01

Tinnitus. I'm like look, my joints are fine. Tinnitus is a ringing or whooshing, or in the ear, it's ear, the nerve of your ear is damaged And what you're hearing in that is the damage that you've done to that nerve. And this has been going on since I left the military. I spent eight and a half years in the army. I heard a lot of explosions, a lot of gunfire, and so as a teenager I listened to a lot of loud music. So the lesson is guard your hearing jealously, right. So I came out of that experience for the last 30 years with this whooshing and ringing in my ear And a friend of mine very good friend of mine called me over to the house one day and said listen, i've got something I want you to try.

Wayne Altman: 5:53

And so I said you know, fine, we put some headphones on. He played a track of music. It was pretty like woo-woo, very crunchy type. You know, music didn't do anything for him And I'm not that, that's not who I am anyway I didn't like the music and it didn't do anything for him. So I we did it again. He tried another track of music, same result, and so I was getting a little bit annoyed. I'm like what are you trying to do here?

Thomas R Verny MD: 6:22

And he said just give me a second.

Wayne Altman: 6:24

The third track he played for me, I heard something I haven't heard in 30 years and it still makes me emotional Silence. It took that whooshing I hear. Right now, As you and I are talking, I hear a very loud ringing in my ear and a whooshing sound And that was gone And I I was like stunned. Four days later, I had the domain Melody Clouds. I had a collection of these binaural beats and I had a list of other frequencies that may be of help to people And I scrambled around, I hired composers, I put these to music and Melody Clouds was born from that encounter.

Thomas R Verny MD: 7:15

So, but obviously you just said that you hear the whooshing sound right now, So it does not give you permanent relief.

Wayne Altman: 7:24

Correct. It's not a cure. There is no cure so far for tinnitus, But what you can do is relieve that from someone over that period of time. Every night I listen to 432 Hertz and.

Wayne Altman: 7:38

I fall asleep like a baby Because I number. I do two things When I go to sleep, and I'm probably the only person that does this. But when I go to sleep, my mind starts racing with all of the things I need to do the next day or things that happen in that day. It's very distracting. I'm exhausted, i'm ready to go to sleep, yet my mind is like not yet. And so when I listen to 432 Hertz, i have a track of music on Melody Clouds right now, and the icon is a sleeping baby, this very cute sleeping baby, thomas. I have listened to 15 seconds of that music hundreds of times. The 16th second, i'm asleep. That's how quickly this works.

Wayne Altman: 8:34

Now you can argue, and people have asked me look, i listen to this frequency, it didn't do anything. I listened to this frequency, it didn't do anything. You want to know something, to be honest, that's what convinced me this was real and not something that I just presuppose and imagine, because when you go to the doctor and he prescribes medication, the next visit is how did that medication work? It's going to work differently for you than it does for me, and so I realized that and I was like you know what? It's not necessarily a bad thing that it doesn't work the same way in everybody. No, nothing does. We're all unique individuals.

Thomas R Verny MD: 9:17

Right, right, right. So in your Melody Clouds, what do you call it? Is it like a website or a business?

Wayne Altman: 9:33

What is it? Melodycloudscom is the website. I went and had an iOS app built for the iPhone and an Android app built for it. It's portable now You can take it anywhere you want to go. It's very similar to Calm Headspace, so relaxation app. That's really basically what it amounts to. We have taken over 18,000 audiobooks all the classics Tom Sawyer, huck Finn. Some people like being read too, other people like reading themselves. There's 8,000 hours of binaural beats and sulfesio frequencies.

Thomas R Verny MD: 10:19

There is What is sulfesio.

Wayne Altman: 10:22

Okay, sulfesio, you were talking about the fact that you didn't know anything about music. I'm very similar. Before all this, i was in a very similar boat. I can't carry a tune and I can't play a note on an instrument. However, the one thing that you and I share with all the people who can is we know when a sour note has been played.

Thomas R Verny MD: 10:44

Yes.

Wayne Altman: 10:45

We know when someone is singing out of tune, it bothers us just as much as it bothers the acapella opera singer True True. Okay, that's sulfesio.

Thomas R Verny MD: 10:56

Yeah.

Wayne Altman: 10:56

That is our natural ability to recognize. Wait a minute, something's wrong here. This is the same as if you and I were to step into an opera where there's a master of singing. It is going to move us in a very similar way as everyone else. Right, that is sulfesio. It was, i don't like to say, invented. It was observed by an 11th century monk named Guido di Arezzo. I always mention him because I love number one, i love the name Number two. That's a really genius way of looking at things, something that we all, everyone shares. If you're listening to someone who can really sing, and it may not even be in a form that you really appreciate normally.

Thomas R Verny MD: 11:54

Would you spell the name of that monk again please?

Wayne Altman: 11:57

Yes, it's G-U-I-D-O, g-u-i-v-o. Guido right, yeah, d Apostrophe Arezzo, a-r-r-z-o Or Z-Z-O.

Thomas R Verny MD: 12:15

Arosso.

Wayne Altman: 12:16

Yeah, arezzo, i hope I've been pronouncing that correctly. I'll look it up.

Thomas R Verny MD: 12:23

I'll look it up. Yeah, so you say you have 8,000 hours 8,000 hours of binaural beats. Why do you need excuse me, why do you need 8,000 hours? I mean, wouldn't 100 hours be enough?

Wayne Altman: 12:39

Certainly not. That's why we have different music, different tracks for people. That's why we perform more than one opera. Some people like they're in a style of a certain style, other people like it serve to them in a different style. Some frequencies, like I said, some frequencies, will not work with some individuals, so you need to have more than one frequency, more than one track in each of those frequencies, in different styles. Do you like banjo music? Yeah, okay, a little bit, not too much. I love banjo music. You want to make someone happy, play the banjo. I've never seen anyone frowning around banjo music, but there are some people.

Wayne Altman: 13:23

We would probably agree. Some people cannot stand banjo music. My grandfather, for example, couldn't stand to hear a violin play. Right, i was like wait, what do you mean? you don't like hearing a violin? I mean someone that is playing a, whether it's a fiddle or whether it's a violin.

Thomas R Verny MD: 13:42

I enjoy that music very much.

Wayne Altman: 13:44

Yeah same here, so I wanted to make an app that was for everyone. Everyone was able to find something in it that they enjoyed, and it would relax them.

Thomas R Verny MD: 14:00

So do you have any way of predicting which type of music is going to fit best a certain type of personality?

Wayne Altman: 14:11

No, yet I do know that we're working on a couple of different things that will kind of give people an idea of what is going to suit them, what's going to help them, But so far it really hasn't borne that much fruit. It really is something that you need to experience and find out what's going to suit you, what type of music you enjoy. Number one, Because that helps a great deal. I have found out that that helps a great deal. If you're enjoying the sounds that this is couched in, then it has a better chance of working and doing the expected outcome.

Wayne Altman: 14:49

Sure, that makes sense One thing I will say is that, especially when you're talking about 8.52 Hertz, when you're talking about 6.39 Hertz, those things, there's an expected result from listening to those binaural beats And I have discovered after the last year, year and a half, that those fall in line exactly with what the expected benefit was going to be, as it's being reported back to me.

Thomas R Verny MD: 15:20

So you said that what you have said two things now. One is that your tinnitus goes away, or at least is suspended, while you're still listening to your sounds. And secondly that was in a few minutes you fall asleep when you play it.

Wayne Altman: 15:39

You seconds. It doesn't take more. I mean I can't even get to a minute. I cannot even get to a minute Now. These are all different frequencies. One Frequency does one thing, one frequency does the other thing. So at night I have to make a decision. Do I get rid of the tinnitus? Yes, do I want to sleep?

Thomas R Verny MD: 16:00

All right, all right. So let's say that I want to go to sleep at night. So how do I go about buying one of your melody clouds Tunes, i guess, or whatever it's?

Wayne Altman: 16:15

a subscription. Okay it's subscription base. Yeah, i'm For two months, for for 60 days. I want people to try this out. So, 60 days, it's $2.99 cents per month for 60 days. Two months After that, if you find that this is something that you you know this is beneficial for you, i charge $5.99 cents thereafter. So I'm really trying to, you know, break the bit, i'm sure sure That's very reasonable.

Thomas R Verny MD: 16:47

So what? what do people get for the 599?

Wayne Altman: 16:51

Okay. So 18,000 audiobooks, 8,000 hours of binaural beats. These binaural beats are in the different frequencies, so different tracks of music and those frequencies. Listen to it as much as you want. E-sobs fables I'm sure you're familiar with these tops fables. You got a big smile on your face, just like I do. I Love those stories, me too. Me too. So, okay, well, this would be better. This would help you because Gary Meyer, a very good friend of mine, reads E-sobs fables in melody clouds. He is a I don't know if you're familiar with Gary, but he's a Hall of Fame. He's in the Radio Hall of Fame right under Marconi. Gary reads these stories. He does a brilliant job. They're about a minute, minute and a half each as read and I Burst into tears the first time I heard him read my stories on melody clouds. It was that emotional for me because, number one, i love the story so much and he does a great job In in reading them. It really kind of brings the story, excuse me to light.

Thomas R Verny MD: 18:03

So what does the app do? you said that you have launched an app for iOS and Android. What does the app do for a person?

Wayne Altman: 18:12

So that's where all the music is right. So you go in the view, open the app, sign it. Sign up, open the app and you see 18,000 audiobooks searchable, searchable by title, searchable by author, all in chronological chapter order. Right, the e-sobs fables there's icons telling you where, which, each, where each of the fables are Lullabies. We'll talk about Lullabies. So I This is really what more people contact me about I'm getting a suspicious number of Contact by new parents And I think this is something you're gonna be very interested in, because I've heard about your book. I'm looking forward to reading it. The Lullabies are cut in five to ten hour sections and the thought being That the first skill a child learns after being born is how to self sue, you're, you're hoping that they learn very quickly how to get themselves back to sleep, should they wake up in the middle of the night. Agree?

Thomas R Verny MD: 19:27

Yeah, agreed, though a lot of them, as many new parents, will testify. Don't learn it for quite a while, right?

Wayne Altman: 19:35

This helps to cut that time down, the theory being You put the baby down, you start playing the lullaby. That lullaby is cut in a longer format. So in the middle of the night, when they wake up, they're hearing the same music played in the same environment. They realize very quickly everything around them is fine, safe, warm, dry, and they can learn to get themselves back to sleep after fussing you a very short period of time. So creating that environment around them that is the same as when you put them down for sleep at night Has a tendency to shorten that time. Right now We're looking at around 30%. That's what's being reported to me. I'm not there to witness this, but I do have Handfuls of email from people going. You are a genius, which, i remind, i share my with my wife all the time. I'm a genius. Yeah, just, that was an accidental. I Just decided look, we're gonna, we're gonna cut these into longer lullabies, right, and That was the happy so far has been the happy result of that.

Thomas R Verny MD: 20:54

Well, that's, that's an amazing, amazing work you have done for a person who has Actually never had anything to do with electronics, i would imagine, or music none, none, no, nothing in as far as music goes.

Wayne Altman: 21:11

I look I have other businesses. That is really what my forte is.

Wayne Altman: 21:16

Yeah, is taking an idea and creating and making a business, and This was something for the first time that I really felt like I had a stake in it, that I had a personal Connection to that business. The others were monetary Let's earn a living. Yeah, i had had that beaten into my brain. You know, from a very young age. You gotta be, you know, you got to give right, you got to learn earn a living. This is a little bit different and it's one of the reasons why I charge what I charge for it. It pays the bills. There's I'm. You know. I was offended by how much other apps like this were charging. It offended me personally, offended me, and So I did this on a, on a, i think, a better app and a for a better price.

Thomas R Verny MD: 22:14

So you mentioned, you mentioned a little bit about your upbringing. Was there, was there anything in terms of your relationship to your parents or what your father or mother did that kind of Contributed to your interest in this subject?

Wayne Altman: 22:38

Look, my parents were probably the two most supportive and you know I may not have always agreed with them. You know what I mean as normal child relationship. I mean you know who does Right, right. But I was very close to my parents. They both passed on. They're sitting within an arm's reach of me right now on my desk. They really did open the world as much as they could to me. I have siblings the same with them. They were very supportive. We were in scouting. You know these. I have always been interested by a lot of different things. I have written six books. Not one of those books did I write before. I mean after becoming an expert. I always became an expert in the subject material while writing the book. I figured that this is the way to learn a subject. You've written a book, you know you learn more after the book is finished than you did writing the book.

Thomas R Verny MD: 23:42

This is very true, right.

Wayne Altman: 23:45

If you've done it correctly. If you've done it correctly, you've done, you've learned more And now you can call yourself an expert, maybe at the end, once you've written the end Right.

Thomas R Verny MD: 23:56

And the interesting thing is that sometimes other people see things in your book that you never imagined were there 100%.

Wayne Altman: 24:05

That is 100% true.

Thomas R Verny MD: 24:07

Which comes then as a surprise. Oh really, You know? did I write that, You know, or did I imply that in my writing? Hey, that's very good. I'm glad I did that.

Wayne Altman: 24:18

Yeah, I did a book on credit called When Bad Credit Happens to Good People. I realized that when I was going through college, when I was going in the military, that there was no credit education in the United States for people. You could get all the credit that you wanted, but you were not allowed to educate people about how the system worked Right, And I found that personally offensive. So I set out to write When Bad Credit Happens to Good People and that's what I learned. I learned so much during writing that book about the American credit system that it's carried over into every single thing, every project I've done since then, In terms of melody clouds, how long ago did you start this?

Thomas R Verny MD: 25:04

When did you start?

Wayne Altman: 25:06

One year and one month. Today is the sixth. Today is the sixth On the seventh last year. we yes, right, we are in 138 countries. We are translated into 203 languages. We let me think what else. I was just going over this the other day. Yeah, we have ramped this up to two apps, a website, oh yeah.

Thomas R Verny MD: 25:35

So when you say we, who else is involved?

Wayne Altman: 25:38

Well, i, you know me, my wife, i've got a team of people that help. I couldn't possibly do everything myself. I do like to take the credit, though.

Thomas R Verny MD: 25:46

So that's a good point.

Wayne Altman: 25:48

I do like to take the credit for all of this.

Thomas R Verny MD: 25:52

So did you make any mistakes along the way during the last you know year?

Wayne Altman: 25:58

Well, I'm really. It's a good thing I'm not one to dwell on the mistakes that I've made, because I would have jumped off a bridge a long time ago, I mean anyone that tells you that they didn't make a mistake in doing something like this is they're delusional.

Wayne Altman: 26:13

They need mental health. So, yes, I made a tremendous and continue to make mistakes. Number one when you, when you trust people to do a job for you that you know, you sometimes you make misjudgments on whether or not they can a complete the work or B are going to be honest about the work that they've completed. Some people are, you know, human being is a fallible thing, you know. So, yes, there were some mistakes that were made in trusting certain people or agreements that people had made, but overall, I learned a lot from it And I'm very grateful to those people who did that, because I now know more, having had to do it myself or fix that fire. They would set things on fire, Thomas. They would set things on fire and I would have to figure out how am I for the life of Melody Clouds, how am I going to put out this fire and make this better and fire proof next time?

Thomas R Verny MD: 27:20

So do you have any children?

Wayne Altman: 27:23

I do. I have three beautiful daughters, geniuses. They are way smarter than their parents And that's a. That's a scary thing, very scary thing. How old are they? So I have one that's 22, one that she just completed a psychology degree in university I have, 18 year old, that we, my wife and I, are taking her. Exactly one month from today, she will be in Iowa on a full scholarship to play volleyball and study biology and chemistry. So we're very proud of her. And then I have one that is going to be 15, two days. Two days from now her birthday. Happy birthday, momo.

Thomas R Verny MD: 28:14

So do they follow? do any of them want to follow in your footsteps?

Wayne Altman: 28:20

I think to a certain degree all three of them bear my markings of parenting My middle daughter. She speaks three languages, she knows how to sew, she loves to bake. She's very, very smart kid, so I like to think I contributed some intelligence to her. My wife would argue with that. She thinks that comes from her and she's well. She's welcome to her opinion. My oldest daughter is a super caring individual, very, very smart. She has a deep interest in children and learning And I think that that it comes from me. Again, my wife is very argumentative and thinks that she had something to do with that And my youngest is a very personable, hilarious individual.

Wayne Altman: 29:15

I mean lights up a room when she walks into it. I've said to people that if you don't like me, I understand, But if you don't like my wife or my youngest daughter, I know where the problem is And it's you, it's you.

Thomas R Verny MD: 29:32

You are the problem, it's you, it's you. So just to change the atmosphere here for a second If you could have dinner with any three people, alive or dead, who would it be?

Wayne Altman: 29:47

So the first one, for sure, without any question, would be my father. I would love to have dinner with my dad and kind of show him where his efforts led and be able to share with him where his grandchildren are and what they're doing. So that's number one. Let's see Charlie Ward. Charlie Ward, basically, was another father figure to me. He's passed away. I would love to have dinner with him and kind of have. We used to have these very deep philosophical conversations and I missed that, the depth that I could go with Charlie about spiritual theology. I missed that tremendously. So he would be invited to that dinner and I think he and my father would get along very well. So that's important. That's important And I think that I would like to have. I don't think, i know I would like to have a dinner with Jesus. I would love to have that, and probably before the other two. Even, i would really like to get to the bottom of some things. I am incredibly curious.

Thomas R Verny MD: 31:12

You're the second person in the last two weeks who has told me that. That's very interesting In terms of what you just mentioned, jesus, and you mentioned the second person, ward, that you used to have, that you used to have really deep conversations with. So forgive me for being a psychiatrist, but are you doing so much to help other people with their emotions and their problems? What do you do for yourself that keeps you sane?

Wayne Altman: 32:06

Well, i will say this that my focus being on my children and keeping it off of me and my problems. We spent last week in Chicago at the National Volleyball Tournament. That, to me, was one of the greatest times I ever got to spend with my children. One of them was participating and getting to watch her excel at something that she's very, very good at Really soothed my soul. It really helped me. It was a very expensive trip. It was a very expensive trip, but that is something that I really appreciated.

Thomas R Verny MD: 32:48

And I'll tell you something else.

Wayne Altman: 32:49

And I hope everyone has this ability or has this opportunity. But I have two friends. I have more than one, more than two friends, but two friends in specific Rick Reinholz and Steve Jackson. And I've known them since 12, 13 years old for Steve and maybe 15, 16-year-old for Rick, so 40 some years. We've known one another. We played golf a couple, three times a year. They live in different states And just talking to them on the phone or just being in their presence and being able to have that camaraderie, that fellowship, really does a lot for me. They're very good for me when I want to bounce off ideas And there's also a competitive element. We always want to. You know there's a little bit. It's healthy, but it's there, it is definitely there. So we play, whether we play golf, whether we in business, how we're doing or how our kids are doing, there's always this underlying, you know, competitive hate. I'm glad to see you're doing well, right.

Thomas R Verny MD: 34:04

Yeah, i understand. I understand. So, in terms of your life and our life and the life we live, what does it mean to you to be human? What does being human mean to you?

Wayne Altman: 34:24

Well, i honestly think that we're all here to take care of one another. We have the capacity of, you know, really great amount of care and love. We also have the capacity of the opposite of that. We show it all the time. But really, those moments, you know, it cannot be denied that, those moments that we all appreciate, when we see two human beings interact and love in a filial, you know, fellowship, you know that's really what melts hearts and what really, you know, makes people feel good. The fact that we're still disgusted when we see people mistreat one another, that to me, is a miracle.

Thomas R Verny MD: 35:14

I understand. So you said that you had some questions of me. Go ahead, ask anything you like.

Wayne Altman: 35:22

Well, i was. I didn't know it was going to be part of this, but you know, look, there are there, are? you said something in an interview and now that you put me on the spot, i'm going to forget what I was talking about Oh well, that's okay, We can do it at the time.

Wayne Altman: 35:34

I was watching you in an interview, i was, oh, this is what I was talking about. Okay, so you had a gentleman that was nodding his head while you were speaking deeply, you know, in agreement, but it was a every time you would speak. He was in the back and he was nodding his head. This like this. And I had a very similar situation where someone that was interviewing me was saying he said a key, he'll give it away. He said a word every in agreement, but he's he'd say this word over and over and over is incredibly distracting in the interview. What was the word?

Thomas R Verny MD: 36:17

What was the word that he said?

Wayne Altman: 36:19

Well, it'll give it away who it was. I don't want to tell you what the word was.

Thomas R Verny MD: 36:22

I'll tell you after.

Wayne Altman: 36:23

Okay, but it was, it was in agreement, he was being in agreement with me And I found it extraordinarily hard to concentrate on the conversation because he was doing this and I was going to ask you did you find it as discombobulating that, that that repetitive motion that you know every time? you would say something in this interview and you? you never mentioned it. at least I didn't see you mention it or call him out or ask it what are you doing? Because I was screaming at my. I was screaming at my monitor. what are you doing? Why are you doing that? It was bothering me for you. It was bothering me for you.

Thomas R Verny MD: 37:06

Well, I appreciate your empathy. No, it was, it was not bothering me.

Wayne Altman: 37:14

What causes that? You have any idea why we, we're humans. We have a tendency to repeat certain things, i guess.

Thomas R Verny MD: 37:23

Yes, we do, yeah, And there are certain words that people repeat over and over again. I think it's just something they get into a habit and then they do it. You know the way we sit, for example. You know you have a way of sitting, i have a way of sitting, and it's the same thing with words. You know there are certain words that you know. When I do interviews, for example, there are people who repeat the word so, so over and over and over again, every sentence, almost So after that, right, you know I went, and so, yes, yes, so there you go. I don't know, i don't know why.

Wayne Altman: 38:11

Do you think it's a soothing? Is it? is it to soothe them in a nervous situation?

Thomas R Verny MD: 38:16

I think so. I think so The more nervous they are, the more they sort of fall back on habits.

Wayne Altman: 38:25

I can see being nervous on someone else's podcast, like, for instance okay, we don't know one another incredibly well right

Thomas R Verny MD: 38:37

We're trying to exchange information. Yeah, you don't want to make a mistake, you don't want to look foolish.

Wayne Altman: 38:44

Maybe I don't know. I'm going to go back through every interview I've done. I've done hundreds of interviews for Melody Clouds. Now I'm now going to have to go back through every single one of those interviews and find out what it is. Maybe it's talk with my hands, but I'm going to have to go back and find out what my I don't know what you would call that tick tell. I don't know what you would call that, but I need to go back and find out where those things are for me, because I think that people that are I don't know, it's very maybe calming for the individual doing it, but for the people that are watching it, i'm not so sure.

Thomas R Verny MD: 39:24

Yeah, you're right, . Yes, it can be distracting, but, on the other hand, people also like people who are not perfect, it's true, right. So it's less intimidating if they see someone making mistakes if you like, in quotation marks, mistakes, because it's not a mistake, but it is less than perfect. You pick up on the fact that they're anxious, which then makes me feel good because, ah, there's another person who is anxious. So it's not so bad if I get anxious once in a while. It gives me permission to be imperfect, and that's always good. That always feels good for us.

Wayne Altman: 40:18

You know that's coming up a lot more and more. I'm doing some work with a group that we're doing a lot of AI research, artificial intelligence research? Yes, of course, and trying to discern, and it used to be that it was very easy to tell that you were talking to artificial intelligence, right? It's not that scary, it's not?

Thomas R Verny MD: 40:40

that scary, they're scary.

Wayne Altman: 40:41

They're getting more and more and more difficult to tell the difference between someone that's you know, someone, but I mean an artificial, intelligent and the and a human being, and it is their lines are. I never thought I would say those things. I always thought that, no, this would be. This will always be easy to tell the difference. We're talking about human beings here, and the fact of the matter is it is getting more and more and more difficult to tell where that line is. Who is?

Thomas R Verny MD: 41:16

who's not. Absolutely well. I'm a chess player and you know chess. Chess programs already 10, 15 years ago were so perfect that only the best players in the world would have any chance of beating them, and nowadays it's almost impossible, really, yeah.

Wayne Altman: 41:40

We have just suppressed. well, I can see that processing power is really chess, Exactly.

Thomas R Verny MD: 41:45

You need a lot of processing power to figure out what moves or what That's right And all the possibilities and all the options and what are the consequences of each move right? And the computer can think 10 moves ahead, whereas you know people like myself, i'm lucky to be able to move to think three or four moves ahead.

Wayne Altman: 42:06

Yeah my middle daughter got into chess quite a bit, when she won't play the game at all now. We'll not play the game at all at all now. Why? Because she got very good at a very young age.

Thomas R Verny MD: 42:21

Yeah.

Wayne Altman: 42:22

And in our area there wasn't you know, when you're the best one in your area, you get no challenge. She's certainly not getting a challenge from me. I very quickly realized this. I'm not playing this kid.

Thomas R Verny MD: 42:36

I mean.

Wayne Altman: 42:36

I've got. this is not going to end well for me And no, so I see that. And she got very discouraged very quickly because of lack of she couldn't play anyone. And if she did find someone that could challenge her, they were so much older that it became very frustrating and she stopped playing. She'll probably pick it up again at some point, just because that's her nature. She's very deep thinker. She does look at you know things, everything is like a chessboard to her, making moves ahead. you know what I mean. So she will probably pick it back up later, but right now at least, i don't think she has been played in a long time.

Thomas R Verny MD: 43:27

I am going to get your app for sure, And I will see what is it? 295 the first two months.

Wayne Altman: 43:35

Yeah, so it's 2.99 a month for the first two months. I want people to try it, okay, but the first thing you're going to notice, the first thing that you're going to know, or maybe not the first thing you're going to notice.

Thomas R Verny MD: 43:46

Number one it's the prettiest thing in your pocket.

Wayne Altman: 43:49

The art in it is stunning. I only picked the best icons of best pictures that I could. That's number one. But the second thing is and this goes for everybody out there that may be listening to this the largest button in Melody Clouds is the unsubscribe button.

Thomas R Verny MD: 44:11

And the reason that I did.

Wayne Altman: 44:12

That is because I don't want anyone to feel that it was hard to unsubscribe If this is not for you. I don't want your money. This is not a. I would have charged three times what I'm charging, like my competitors. This is not that. If you find no value in this, give it back. You know, it is really not a. I don't want to say I don't care but I do care that you don't feel cheated.

Thomas R Verny MD: 44:44

How's that? I'm very impressed, honestly, god. I'm very, very impressed. I love your enthusiasm, love your entrepreneurship, i love the way you care about people who are suffering, and so I highly, highly, highly recommend everyone listening to, at least have a look at, melody Clouds, and they will find you on the website Melody Clouds right.

Wayne Altman: 45:12

MelodyCloudscom they can contact me, Wayne Altman at Melody Clouds, And I encourage them to do that. You know I'm overwhelmed with spam. I would really like, I would really like human interaction in the more human interaction in my email box. And I respond to them. It's funny.

Thomas R Verny MD: 45:34

Well, I enjoyed our human interaction very much And I wish you the best of luck and lots of success. And don't hesitate to contact me if you just want to have a chat.

Wayne Altman: 45:50

Thomas, thank you very much And I'm going to take you up on that.

Thomas R Verny MD: 45:53

Okay, wayne, take care, i will let you go now, bye, bye.